The Attack on the 2nd Amendment Continues

ATN_Pilot said:
The NRA is the only reason you're still allowed to own those guns. Without their efforts, your guns would have been outlawed decades ago.
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I have to disagree with that. They have done some good regarding the 2nd amendment in the past, but they have also failed miserably at showing any leadership with it comes to sensible gun laws like closing the loop hole of second hand sales.

I was done with the NRA for good after the 2008 election cycle when I got more than a few mailings and recorded phone calls from them on issues not tied to the 2nd amendment (and more of the same in the midterm). They are a conservative lobby that uses the 2nd amendment to garner support for other conservative issues. We need a nonpartisan group to take their place, and we need a lobby that works towards sensible laws that benefits public safety while minimizing restrictions on law abiding owners.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's not a "loop hole," it's a basic freedom. The government has no business getting involved in my private sale of a gun to another citizen anymore than if I sold someone my couch.
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Ron Paul would agree with you on the overreach of the federal government on things like this, as well as others. :D
 
MikeD said:
Ron Paul would agree with you on the overreach of the federal government on things like this, as well as others. :D
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Yes, I agree with Mr. Paul on some things. It's his crazy economic policies that I can't stomach. I also part ways when it comes to regulation of interstate commerce.
 
Hacker15e said:
There are a lot of non-thinkers amongst the ranks. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would not have the moral courage to evaluate an 'illegal order' against their oath to the Constitution, and then deliberately disobey the order. Most military folks would probably go with whatever their Commanders chose, because they are conditioned to think that their leadership is right and we've seen instances where folks who called orders unconstitutional were given The People's Elbow in return (like Lt Watada with his OIF orders).

It is the mid-level managers -- the Captains to Colonels and senior NCOs -- who would really determine what would happen. Whichever way they went, the majority of their people would go. That's where the 'civil disobedience' would really start. I know a lot of O-3s, O-4s, and O-5s who would be able to draw a line and say 'no' if ridiculous orders like that were to come from higher up.
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This scares the crap out of me. Realistically, if they wanted to confiscate guns, they'd figure out a way. You'll have guard units from Florida policing neighborhoods in Texas, units from Oregon kicking in doors in Alabama. The "regular" military probably wouldn't even be bothered with it, or if they were, you'd bet that there would be some nonsense about how the neighborhood they were raiding was filled with "domestic" insurgents or something to that effect.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's not a "loop hole," it's a basic freedom. The government has no business getting involved in my private sale of a gun to another citizen anymore than if I sold someone my couch.
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Right, so while we have background checks and other protections at gun dealers, any thug can drive to my state with cash and the local want ad and return to the city with a truck load of guns to sell on the streets illegally. That makes absolutely zero sense. The loophole is the reason why we have an endless flood of illegal guns. Plugging that is a way to maintain ownership rights while greatly reducing the number of guns working their way to the hands of criminals.

I would happily deal with private sales via a licensed dealer who can process the appropriate checks. It doesn't mean registration, and it wouldn't even be very expensive. It simply puts a major roadblock in-front of anyone who can't legally buy a gun.
 
Acadia said:
Right, so while we have background checks and other protections at gun dealers, any thug can drive to my state with cash and the local want ad and return to the city with a truck load of guns to sell on the streets illegally. That makes absolutely zero sense. The loophole is the reason why we have an endless flood of illegal guns and it makes. Plugging that is a way to maintain ownership rights while greatly reducing the number of guns working their way to the hands of criminals.
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You're talking to someone who believes that just about everything should be legal. Prostitution, gambling, drugs, etc. I don't believe in government intervention in my personal life. The place for government intervention is in economics and commerce. What drug someone smokes, what hooker they pay for a BJ, or what gun they buy, is no business of government.

Going after gun sales is not a way to end gun crime. Stopping the lock-up of drug offenders, ending the drug war completely, and focusing on prosecution of violent crime, is the way to get thugs with guns off the streets.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Going after gun sales is not a way to end gun crime. Stopping the lock-up of drug offenders, ending the drug war completely, and focusing on prosecution of violent crime, is the way to get thugs with guns off the streets.
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Take today's thugs off the streets and more will fill their place, and as it is now there is an endless supply of cheap guns to commit crimes with. I will happily deal with going to a dealer or any other appropriate intermediary so that the transfer of a firearm in a private sale has the same checks required of a gun dealer.

I would think that gun advocates who are interested in defending themselves would want a way to reduce firearms available to criminals if it did not infringe on the guns they could legally own.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Really? You don't think all of it would have been gone years ago if the NRA hadn't been fighting it? How naive.
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If I was drinking the NRA Kool Ade I'm sure I'd agree with you.

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Acadia said:
Take today's thugs off the streets and more will fill their place
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Street thugs only exist because there is profit to be had for them. Largely in drugs, but also in gambling, prostitution, and other "vices" that the government basically hands them on a silver platter. Eliminate vice laws, tax and regulate it, and much of the thugs cease to exist.

I would think that gun advocates who are interested in defending themselves would want a way to reduce firearms available to criminals if it did not infringe on the guns they could legally own.
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I don't want the government having anything to do with guns. As far as I'm concerned, the current laws are unconstitutional.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't want the government having anything to do with guns. As far as I'm concerned, the current laws are unconstitutional.
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You have to realize that is a losing position. Every supreme court ruling on 2nd amendment issues that I know of, makes it pretty clear that there are plenty of gun laws that are not unconstitutional. The SCOTUS has been clear that we have the right, but it is not without limitation. The key is sensible limitations.

If the NRA had half a brain, they would see the gun legislation train coming and they would jump to the head of the line and call it their parade. From there they might have a shot at steering the parade away from stupid laws, while working to find sensible ones that would have an impact without preventing legal owners from owning what they want. If they did that I might have some respect for them.
 
ppragman said:
This scares the crap out of me. Realistically, if they wanted to confiscate guns, they'd figure out a way. You'll have guard units from Florida policing neighborhoods in Texas, units from Oregon kicking in doors in Alabama. The "regular" military probably wouldn't even be bothered with it, or if they were, you'd bet that there would be some nonsense about how the neighborhood they were raiding was filled with "domestic" insurgents or something to that effect.
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Hail Ceaser. Someone knows their Roman Legion history.

'Never order a soldier to fight in his home province.'
 
Acadia said:
You have to realize that is a losing position.
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I don't know how you're figuring that. Every indication is that gun control isn't going anywhere. It will never get through the House. Lawmakers have fallen in line, and this isn't going anywhere on a federal level. Some of the northeastern states will probably enact their own laws, and the NRA will challenge those laws in court. Most of them will probably be struck down.

I'm feeling pretty good about where things stand right now. Thanks to the NRA.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't know how you're figuring that. Every indication is that gun control isn't going anywhere. It will never get through the House. Lawmakers have fallen in line, and this isn't going anywhere on a federal level. Some of the northeastern states will probably enact their own laws, and the NRA will challenge those laws in court. Most of them will probably be struck down.

I'm feeling pretty good about where things stand right now. Thanks to the NRA.
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What if the President does indeed decide to go the Executive Order direction?
 
MikeD said:
What if the President does indeed decide to go the Executive Order direction?
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New law cannot be made with EOs -- only clarification of existing law. Biden's own statement indicates they don't even know what they're going to do via EO.
 
MikeD said:
What if the President does indeed decide to go the Executive Order direction?
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I'm sorry, but I just find that to be so absurdist that it isn't worth even considering the possibility. There won't be an executive order enacting new gun control. It's just that simple.
 
Acadia said:
Right, so while we have background checks and other protections at gun dealers, any thug can drive to my state with cash and the local want ad and return to the city with a truck load of guns to sell on the streets illegally. That makes absolutely zero sense. The loophole is the reason why we have an endless flood of illegal guns. Plugging that is a way to maintain ownership rights while greatly reducing the number of guns working their way to the hands of criminals.

I would happily deal with private sales via a licensed dealer who can process the appropriate checks. It doesn't mean registration, and it wouldn't even be very expensive. It simply puts a major roadblock in-front of anyone who can't legally buy a gun.
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Where do you live? Because I'd love to go gun shopping with cash, no background check, and no record that I was ever there and bought one. But I've never seen that, not even in Texas. Everyplace across the country where I've looked at guns, it's the same story: if you're from out of state and want to buy a gun, the only way to do it is have them ship it to a dealer in your home state.
 
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