TEB crash 5/15/17

base to final stall/spin is pretty obvious at this point, however I would not rule out the wind as a contributing factor, in fact I would bet on it having SOME factor.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Sometime after passing TORBY tower queried the aircraft if they were circling to 1. The aircraft began the circle with a tight turn about 1-1.5 miles from the approach end to 6 at around 500ft. Looks like they forgot they were circling and tried to do it last second. Should have gone around.
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Does everyone normally circle early from 6 to 1, making it a sidestep-style dogleg to final, or can they overfly 6 to about midfield, make a right turn to south, essentially entering a right downwind for 1, ad proceed to land from there? A circling maneuver that's almost like a modified overhead.
 
MikeD said:
Does everyone normally circle early from 6 to 1, making it a sidestep-style dogleg to final, or can they overfly 6 to about midfield, make a right turn to south, essentially entering a right downwind for 1, ad proceed to land from there? A circling maneuver that's almost like a modified overhead.
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You would cause major problems if you tried that. We did ILS 19 circle 24 today and as we were turning final there was another plane crossing the final fix on 19 starting their circle. They keep you tight
 
Inverted25 said:
You would cause major problems if you tried that. We did ILS 19 circle 24 today and as we were turning final there was another plane crossing the final fix on 19 starting their circle. They keep you tight
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Why would it cause major problems? Do they frequently have aircraft land 24 and 1 simultaneously? I'm assuming it would be easier to sequence airplanes, modify their breaks over Ry 6 to 1 downwind based upon in trail separation. Unless that somehow creates TCAS conflicts for EWR

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bimmerphile said:
Why would it cause major problems? Do they frequently have aircraft land 24 and 1 simultaneously? I'm assuming it would be easier to sequence airplanes, modify their breaks over Ry 6 to 1 downwind based upon in trail separation. Unless that somehow creates TCAS conflicts for EWR

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There's never people landing 24 and 1. But to make break to downwind from 6 to 1 work we would have to run like 10 miles between arrivals.
 
NovemberEcho said:
There's never people landing 24 and 1. But to make break to downwind from 6 to 1 work we would have to run like 10 miles between arrivals.
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What's the difference for sequencing in an overhead circle to downwind, versus circling like they currently do?

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NovemberEcho said:
They amount of time they're spent going slow in the pattern.
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Interesting. So they run what, 3 miles during 6/1 ops then?

I get my June schedule tomorrow, I'll be bugging you for a tour. I wrangled up a few friends from my shop that live here and are interested in visiting

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NovemberEcho said:
Sometime after passing TORBY tower queried the aircraft if they were circling to 1. The aircraft began the circle with a tight turn about 1-1.5 miles from the approach end to 6 at around 500ft. Looks like they forgot they were circling and tried to do it last second. Should have gone around.
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I was kinda thinking that based on the traffic calls that were being given.

Edit: Compared to that video posted above, seems like this turn would have brought them inside the stadium, not outside.
 
NovemberEcho said:
They amount of time they're spent going slow in the pattern.
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I wouldn't think it would be that much of a problem. Granted they wouldn't be flying a fighter-style overhead in terms of tight spacing between aircraft; but a 6 overhead style circle to a 1 downwind is still a diverging ground track, that I would think tighter than 10 miles could be done, or even speed restrictions at certain points on the 6 final in order to not have to extend the turn point to the downwind beyond the midfield of 6/1. Would that not be workable?
 
MikeD said:
I wouldn't think it would be that much of a problem. Granted they wouldn't be flying a fighter-style overhead in terms of tight spacing between aircraft; but a 6 overhead style circle to a 1 downwind is still a diverging ground track, that I would think tighter than 10 miles could be done, or even speed restrictions at certain points on the 6 final in order to not have to extend the turn point to the downwind beyond the midfield of 6/1. Would that not be workable?
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The problem is they are still afforded IFR separation while in the circle, so visual separation can be handy, but it can't be counted on. If all of the sudden they canceled IFR, overflew the field and entered the right downwind, then your suggestion would work, but no one is going to cancel their IFR at pattern altitude at TEB.
 
bimmerphile said:
Interesting. So they run what, 3 miles during 6/1 ops then?

I get my June schedule tomorrow, I'll be bugging you for a tour. I wrangled up a few friends from my shop that live here and are interested in visiting

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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6/1 we aim for 4 miles when the first aircraft hits TORBY assuming similar capabilities (obviously different for a light single compared to a LJ) to get 3 at the threshold.
 
greg1016 said:
I was kinda thinking that based on the traffic calls that were being given.

Edit: Compared to that video posted above, seems like this turn would have brought them inside the stadium, not outside.
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They were almost even with the approach end to 1 at the apex of their turn. Way way way late. Couldn't tell if they tried to turn back to line up with 1, which might have been when the stall and spin happened.
 
greg1016 said:
The problem is they are still afforded IFR separation while in the circle, so visual separation can be handy, but it can't be counted on. If all of the sudden they canceled IFR, overflew the field and entered the right downwind, then your suggestion would work, but no one is going to cancel their IFR at pattern altitude at TEB.
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Ah. Makes sense. Although maintaining an IFR while merely maneuvering to land in VMC (assuming no other prevailing Wx) makes little sense. I wonder why they don't do similar to mil. In a mil pattern, when in VMC with prevailing VFR wx;at many bases, your IFR is often cancelled automatically once you enter the pattern to land, whichever way you do it....from a visual, circling off an instrument approach, etc, if there's no chance of you re-entering any Wx. Done that way so tower doesn't have to deal with IFR separation. Even if someone overshoots a runway, they can be resequenced while in the pattern and remaining with tower. Unless TEBs tower airspace is too restricted or too tight to do so, that's always possible.


NovemberEcho said:
They were almost even with the approach end to 1 at the apex of their turn. Way way way late. Couldn't tell if they tried to turn back to line up with 1, which might have been when the stall and spin happened.
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Almost even with the approach end of 1 while coming up 6? Perfect position to start a right turn to a right downwind southbound for 1, ATC allowing, of course. Wouldn't have hurt to request that or ATC to have offered it, as that would've been an easy out from the square corner they were now in.
 
MikeD said:
Almost even with the approach end of 1 while coming up 6? Perfect position to start a right turn to a right downwind southbound for 1, ATC allowing, of course. Wouldn't have hurt to request that or ATC to have offered it, as that would've been an easy out from the square corner they were now in.
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I have no Tower experience so I don't really know what they could or couldn't have offered, but really for that situation they're best bet by far would have been to just go around. They started the circle at 4-500', so that probably
brought them pretty close to some buildings or antennae out there too that normally you'd be outside of during a circle. All this is assuming they just forgot they were going to be circling and were thinking straight in 6.
 
NovemberEcho said:
I have no Tower experience so I don't really know what they could or couldn't have offered, but really for that situation they're best bet by far would have been to just go around. All this is assuming they just forgot they were going to be circling and were thinking straight in 6.
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Had they gone around, would tower have kept them and sequenced them into the pattern, or would they have been sent back to radar for vectors for another approach? I ask because I don't know what local LOAs there may be there between TRACON/tower and how they operate together there.
 
MikeD said:
Ah. Makes sense. Although maintaining an IFR while merely maneuvering to land in VMC (assuming no other prevailing Wx) makes little sense. I wonder why they don't do similar to mil. In a mil pattern, when in VMC with prevailing VFR wx;at many bases, your IFR is often cancelled automatically once you enter the pattern to land, whichever way you do it....from a visual, circling off an instrument approach, etc, if there's no chance of you re-entering any Wx. Done that way so tower doesn't have to deal with IFR separation. Even if someone overshoots a runway, they can be resequenced while in the pattern and remaining with tower. Unless TEBs tower airspace is too restricted or too tight to do so, that's always possible.
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I am sure the military has a whole other set of rules with regards to things like these, but in the civilian world the rule is three miles arrival to arrival between IFR aircraft.


MikeD said:
Almost even with the approach end of 1 while coming up 6? Perfect position to start a right turn to a right downwind southbound for 1, ATC allowing, of course. Wouldn't have hurt to request that or ATC to have offered it, as that would've been an easy out from the square corner they were now in.
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Would not have hurt to request RWY 6 or just go missed. It takes a jet *civilian* a similar amount of time to get around the pattern as a bug smasher because they fly them a lot wider. I am not going to Monday Morning QB it though.

Honestly listening to the recording for the whole 30 minutes leading it, it makes me wonder why they don't just land 06 and depart 01. They could probably push more departures that way. Landing a Lear in a 30 knot 50 degree crosswind should not be that big a deal with 6000 feet of runway. They do it at my airport all the time.
 
greg1016 said:
Honestly listening to the recording for the whole 30 minutes leading it, it makes me wonder why they don't just land 06 and depart 01. They could probably push more departures that way. Landing a Lear in a 30 knot 50 degree crosswind should not be that big a deal with 6000 feet of runway. They do it at my airport all the time.
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That's a good question too, landing on 6. Again, am not personally familiar with TEB ops, so am trying to understand/learn the localisms there through this thread.
 
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