TEB crash 5/15/17

MikeD said:
Had they gone around, would tower have kept them and sequenced them into the pattern, or would they have been sent back to radar for vectors for another approach? I ask because I don't know what local LOAs there may be there between TRACON/tower and how they operate together there.
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at TEB 99.9% of go arounds will come back to approach for resequence, especially on the northeast flow. Southwest flow, there's a better chance of being able to stay in the pattern traffic permitting, but even then 95% of the time you're going approach. During the week, it's usually an arrival every 3-4 miles all day.
 
greg1016 said:
Honestly listening to the recording for the whole 30 minutes leading it, it makes me wonder why they don't just land 06 and depart 01. They could probably push more departures that way. Landing a Lear in a 30 knot 50 degree crosswind should not be that big a deal with 6000 feet of runway. They do it at my airport all the time.
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Usually we switch to the circle after a lot of guys start complaint about the wind and request the circle. Enough start doing that and we switch to the circle as the advertised approache.
 
greg1016 said:
The problem is they are still afforded IFR separation while in the circle, so visual separation can be handy, but it can't be counted on. If all of the sudden they canceled IFR, overflew the field and entered the right downwind, then your suggestion would work, but no one is going to cancel their IFR at pattern altitude at TEB.
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Just a curious question. When I accept a visual and there's traffic to follow I get the "maintain visual separation from JetBlue xxxx. Cleared for the visual 30." Once a visual is issued isn't everything up to the crew? And in this case where there is no charted procedure for the circle how are they still afforded IFR separation? Again, just curious.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Just a curious question. When I accept a visual and there's traffic to follow I get the "maintain visual separation from JetBlue xxxx. Cleared for the visual 30." Once a visual is issued isn't everything up to the crew? And in this case where there is no charted procedure for the circle how are they still afforded IFR separation? Again, just curious.
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As is, if needed tower can provide visual. Add a downwind and tower may not be able to. That is not the same as you following traffic that you have in sight.
 
NovemberEcho said:
As is, if needed tower can provide visual. Add a downwind and tower may not be able to. That is not the same as you following traffic that you have in sight.
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Maybe I'm confused. Generally I am and I'm in Argentina on a trip so the whole Southern Hemisphere thing is probably messing with my brain. But, I usually get cleared for he visual by approach nit the tower. At least at LGB where I'm based.
 
there's visual approaches, and tower applied visual seperation. You being told to follow traffic you have in sight and cleared visual approach puts it on you to maintain sep. Tower applied visual does not require the pilots to have eachother in sight, just the tower to have both aircraft in sight, and the tower will ensure seperation. Both aircraft can be on an ILS and tower
can still apply visual seperation. They won't clear you for a visual approach though when they're doing that.
 
NovemberEcho said:
I have no Tower experience so I don't really know what they could or couldn't have offered, but really for that situation they're best bet by far would have been to just go around. They started the circle at 4-500', so that probably
brought them pretty close to some buildings or antennae out there too that normally you'd be outside of during a circle. All this is assuming they just forgot they were going to be circling and were thinking straight in 6.
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Never been to TEB, so pardon the silly question. Do you ever land straight in to 06?
 
There definitely needs to be an RNAV visual for something this common. On the e190 fleet at AA, which spends 75% of its time in LGA and DCA, the most common unstable approaches are to RW1 at DCA and 4 at LGA.

The river visual 19 and expressway 31 are just slightly above the normal unstable approach mark bc we have an RNAV procedure. Makes it a complete non-event.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
There definitely needs to be an RNAV visual for something this common. On the e190 fleet at AA, which spends 75% of its time in LGA and DCA, the most common unstable approaches are to RW1 at DCA and 4 at LGA.

The river visual 19 and expressway 31 are just slightly above the normal unstable approach mark bc we have an RNAV procedure. Makes it a complete non-event.
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We have 2 different RNAV's to 6. theyre a pain in the butt though from a sequencing standpoint though. Nothing to 1 though.
 
NovemberEcho said:
We have 2 different RNAV's to 6. theyre a pain in the butt though from a sequencing standpoint though. Nothing to 1 though.
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I'm saying there should be a charted RNAV to 6 that flies the exact track of the ILS 1 circle to 6. It would have multiple fixes from TORBY that made a right descending turn to put you on a left base and final to 1.

We have them for the river visual and the expressway. Perfectly stable the whole way down. Takes the guess work out.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
I'm saying there should be a charted RNAV to 6 that flies the exact track of the ILS 1 circle to 6. It would have multiple fixes from TORBY that made a right descending turn to put you on a left base and final to 1.

We have them for the river visual and the expressway. Perfectly stable the whole way down. Takes the guess work out.
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Now you're just being silly. Logic and FAA don't mix.
 
We have them as well. RNAV visual to the 19's in Vegas come to mind. I remember hearing that each company had to be approved to use them or they may be tailored to the specific airline... Can't really remember but I don't think they are standard. We didn't have them at my old airline either...
 
NovemberEcho said:
Now you're just being silly. Logic and FAA don't mix.
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Lol I heard that. It would make it way too easy. I don't get it bc they approve them for the airlines.

ATC doesn't even know we're doing our own procedure. When we're cleared the river visual or expressway we just hook it up and fly the exact ground track they want, completely stable.
 
bimmerphile said:
Here's one of the businesses that caught fire after the crash, per the article
b1688e79691f37fe42a7b21304d3471b.jpg


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Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 3.43.17 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 3.43.17 PM.png
 
Boris Badenov said:
Are you suggesting that doing the 4L at JFK circle to 31R and "turn over the cartoon factory" or (my personal favorite) "hit the timer and turn 045 at 30 seconds" isn't Read-World? Sir, I believe you might be endangering the profits of a successful Murican Enterprise! To the Camps with him.
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I'm convinced my skills circling at MEM are entirely due to a misspent youth playing video games. Instructor insisted that doing it on autopilot with the heading bug was the right way to fly a circle. Circling for the first time in the real world in the jet was not exactly the same as in the schoolhouse.
 
NovemberEcho said:
6/1 we aim for 4 miles when the first aircraft hits TORBY assuming similar capabilities (obviously different for a light single compared to a LJ) to get 3 at the threshold.
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Gotcha. Were you working the final tonight around 1940? Cleared us for 22l at 5k, referencing traffic while still 6ish from TEB

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