TEB crash 5/15/17

Kingairer said:
Having never done this, how does this approach compare to something like the expressway to LGA or JFK circles or DCA river Visuals?
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The LGA can jam you up the first time you do it, this can jam you up every time you do it.

It's a tight turn going downhill with some towers in the circle. Dumb
 
My last sim training at Eagle was for CRJ captain and my instructor wanted me to configure late (violated stabilized approach SOP) and call for the landing checklist prior to final configuration (against SOP) for no good reason on the LGA expressway visual. Bad training for newbies that don't know the difference.

As an industry, we have GOT to work on "if unstable go-around." Period. No "unless you're visual" or "unless you're doing the XYZ approach."

We don't know what happened here, and I'm not intimating anything.
 
Goonie said:
Sure, if I'm flying a 172 into some random west Texas airfield it's probably no problem, but flying commercial ops in high performance airplanes with tight spacing, ground obstructions, base tailwinds, blind spots. Not stable. Not necessary
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Still wondering how ground obstructions are an immediate/critical problem. Are guys circling at too low an altitude? Or too wide a pattern?

Not having flown it, and seeing on the ILS 6 plate that circling Cat B/C/D is NA to the northwest, when landing on RW 1, are guys leveling out at or above the Circling MDA, overflying RW 6, making a right turn to enter a right downwind for RW1, and flying a pattern/circle that way? Or are crews spotting the field early enough on final to RW6, making a right 10 or 20 degree turn to enter a left dogleg final for RW1 and landing? Even if just "cleared for a visual, make a pattern for RW1" off the ILS, I would think guys would at least utilize the circling MDAs just for good reference and obstacle avoidance, until in the proper position to descend from there..

I see the obstructions all over the place, but if circling at 800ish AGL, are they still a large problem?

Again, haven't flown it myself, so only wondering based on what I see on the plate.

If towers are inside your maneuvering circle, one would think that possibly people are descending early, or that the circling protected area for the depicted MDA(s) isn't actually true?
 
It's the latter and if you stay at the Circle MDA until final you'd either be too wide or too high. It's a visual maneuver with no charting.
 
mikecweb said:
It's the latter and if you stay at the Circle MDA until final you'd either be too wide or too high. It's a visual maneuver with no charting.
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If that's the case, I'm surprised that's allowed. Even if flying the approach and the circling minima, does that minima allow one to position and descend in time for a safe landing? If not, how is there Cat C/D (or even B?) circling minima at all?
 
MikeD said:
Still wondering how ground obstructions are an immediate/critical problem. Are guys circling at too low an altitude? Or too wide a pattern?

Not having flown it, and seeing on the ILS 6 plate that circling Cat B/C/D is NA to the northwest, when landing on RW 1, are guys leveling out at or above the Circling MDA, overflying RW 6, making a right turn to enter a right downwind for RW1, and flying a pattern/circle that way? Or are crews spotting the field early enough on final to RW6, making a right 10 or 20 degree turn to enter a left dogleg final for RW1 and landing? Even if just "cleared for a visual, make a pattern for RW1" off the ILS, I would think guys would at least utilize the circling MDAs just for good reference and obstacle avoidance, until in the proper position to descend from there..

I see the obstructions all over the place, but if circling at 800ish AGL, are they still a large problem?

Again, haven't flown it myself, so only wondering based on what I see on the plate.

If towers are inside your maneuvering circle, one would think that possibly people are descending early, or that the circling protected area for the depicted MDA(s) isn't actually true?
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I'm too tired to type up my experience with that approach but Eddie does a good job here: http://code7700.com/kteb.htm

Scroll about halfway down to the arrivals area and "circling" and you'll see the section about arriving to runway 1. Somewhere(maybe click the picture) is a video of him flying the approach as it's typically done. He's updated the website so things are a little different than last time I was on there.
 
MikeD said:
If that's the case, I'm surprised that's allowed. Even if flying the approach and the circling minima, does that minima allow one to position and descend in time for a safe landing? If not, how is there Cat C/D (or even B?) circling minima at all?
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In my experience and it's been awhile thankfully, it's never really done with low vis so it's a visual approach not really a circle. The ils just keeps everything in line.
 
MikeD said:
If that's the case, I'm surprised that's allowed. Even if flying the approach and the circling minima, does that minima allow one to position and descend in time for a safe landing? If not, how is there Cat C/D (or even B?) circling minima at all?
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When I did a tower tour there, they said they don't care where you turn, as long as it's after TORBY to make sure that you don't encroach on EWRs surface area. Not so much a traditional IFR circling approach. To my knowledge it isn't used in bad weather that would require you to adhere to published circling mins but I'be never been required to attempt it when the conditions were bad. Also, I feel like this should be one of the approaches that would benefit from the new circling mins, but I'm sure it wouldn't meet the requirements because of the towers.
 
sweeps said:
When I did a tower tour there, they said they don't care where you turn, as long as it's after TORBY to make sure that you don't encroach on EWRs surface area. Not so much a traditional IFR circling approach. To my knowledge it isn't used in bad weather that would require you to adhere to published circling mins but I'be never been required to attempt it when the conditions were bad. Also, I feel like this should be one of the approaches that would benefit from the new circling mins, but I'm sure it wouldn't meet the requirements because of the towers.
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Interesting points. Yeah if they tried to lower the circling mins, that would restrict which categories could do it due to the obstruction encroachment.

I do wonder if guys are using the something resembling the circling MDA, even for the visual maneuver, if like you say, maybe that's too high to make a safe descent out of, resulting in a slam dunk approach style. I'll have to check out the link you posted here to get the idea of that, thank you for linking that.
 
MikeD said:
Interesting points. Yeah if they tried to lower the circling mins, that would restrict which categories could do it due to the obstruction encroachment.

I do wonder if guys are using the something resembling the circling MDA, even for the visual maneuver, if like you say, maybe that's too high to make a safe descent out of, resulting in a slam dunk approach style. I'll have to check out the link you posted here to get the idea of that, thank you for linking that.
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Check out the Missed Approach procedures for 19 and it'll give you a sense of how the opposite side is a CF. Airspace and obstructions.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I just absolutely relish the notion of sitting down with some junk-bond billionaire and explaining to them, with pictures and everything, how I, their eminently qualified chauffeur, am allowed (nay, encouraged) to do things with their skylimo which the Gummint has decided are too dangerous to do with a bus-load of inconsequential peasants.
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I know what you're getting at. But this was a clear day. Basically visual to 1 circle to 6. If the wind is howling at LGA I've done the ILS 22 circle 13 at LGA. It's all well and good until they tell you to start the circle at 3 miles. Holding short of 13 while they're doing that you constantly see overshoot after overshoot.

So while the airlines don't do circles in IMC we most definitely do weird stuff in visual conditions, like this accident.
 
Having flown it myself, it is usually something along the lines of "180 to TORBY, circle after TORBY, one departure prior to your arrival, cleared to land 1."

It's basically a low altitude ground reference maneuver, configured, at 120kts with obstacles and airspace limitations.


Sent from my Startac using Tapatalk.
 
CFI A&P said:
Having flown it myself, it is usually something along the lines of "180 to TORBY, circle after TORBY, one departure prior to your arrival, cleared to land 1."

It's basically a low altitude ground reference maneuver, configured, at 120kts with obstacles and airspace limitations.


Sent from my Startac using Tapatalk.
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Or 140 knots in Lear 60's and Gulfstreams.
 
MikeD said:
Still wondering how ground obstructions are an immediate/critical problem. Are guys circling at too low an altitude? Or too wide a pattern?

Not having flown it, and seeing on the ILS 6 plate that circling Cat B/C/D is NA to the northwest, when landing on RW 1, are guys leveling out at or above the Circling MDA, overflying RW 6, making a right turn to enter a right downwind for RW1, and flying a pattern/circle that way? Or are crews spotting the field early enough on final to RW6, making a right 10 or 20 degree turn to enter a left dogleg final for RW1 and landing? Even if just "cleared for a visual, make a pattern for RW1" off the ILS, I would think guys would at least utilize the circling MDAs just for good reference and obstacle avoidance, until in the proper position to descend from there..

I see the obstructions all over the place, but if circling at 800ish AGL, are they still a large problem?

Again, haven't flown it myself, so only wondering based on what I see on the plate.

If towers are inside your maneuvering circle, one would think that possibly people are descending early, or that the circling protected area for the depicted MDA(s) isn't actually true?
Click to expand...

Those are a lot of reason not to fly this circling visual. If this sucks so much, why do people do it? Rw1 is 1000 ft longer than Rw6 (Rw6 is 6000 ft). How often do pilots just land straight in?
 
deadstick said:
Those are a lot of reason not to fly this circling visual. If this sucks so much, why do people do it? Rw1 is 1000 ft longer than Rw6 (Rw6 is 6000 ft). How often do pilots just land straight in?
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It's been almost a decade since I've been in there, but the circle was very common. It's very rare to get a straight in there...

TEB is the red headed step child of the Northeast. When people say GA doesn't pay it's fair share, I think of how GA is treated there. It's ridiculous how the airlines are given priority.
 
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