BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Tailwinds to the fallen. Stay frosty TEB comrades. Glad I dunna do that no mo
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
TEB crash 5/15/17
- Thread starter GolfChuck
- Start date
Why a tight turn to a short final? Isn't it TERPs'd for appropriate Category?
CK
Well-Known Member
The circles at TEB are tough in general, let alone when it's gusting over 30 knots...I have always been surprised there has not been an accident related to one.
Alex.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Because TEB is 8 miles directly under the extended centerline for EWR rwy 4's. You can't circle too early/wide or you'll be playing with EWR departures.
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KLB
Well-Known Member
Circling....I'd say that flying into TEB in general sucks. We're treated like second class citizens to aircraft arriving to EWR and LGA.
A while back they threw this absurd charted visual that everyone pretty much refused to fly. It took you way to close to a cluster of antennas. The circling approaches do this also.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Condolences to the families. 
I have flown on plenty of windy days, but today was the first time in a long time, that I felt it prudent that I fly both departures out of LGA. They were pretty challenging with the crosswind off 4. And I love watching my FOs work a challenge. Not today.
I have flown on plenty of windy days, but today was the first time in a long time, that I felt it prudent that I fly both departures out of LGA. They were pretty challenging with the crosswind off 4. And I love watching my FOs work a challenge. Not today.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
It's a visual maneuver, so not subject to TERPS restrictions on circling, at least as I understand it. The nomenclature should probably be "N123XY, field in sight" "N123XY, cleared visual runway 1", although to my recollection, that's not the terminology in use.
AAPalmTree
Well-Known Member
Be careful out there. One minute things are fine.
It's a visual maneuver yes, but there has to be appropriate obstacle clearance for your approach category circling radius TERPSd out (if part of an instrument approach) in order to allow each category to have circling mins and determine what the circling MDA will be for that Category, otherwise you get circling "NA" for the higher categories. 2.3sm for cat D if I remember right, though in my day all I worried about was 4.5sm for Cat E. There shouldn't have to be obstacles to have to worry about.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Usually it's "after xxxx fix, cleared the visual circle runway x."
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
To expand, for the Regs Wizards out there, my understanding is that a circling maneuver is a portion of an instrument approach, therefore the protected area applies. I'm pretty sure that the protected area would allow one to fly MUCH further out from the field than NY Approach wants you to go (for the aforementioned conflicts with traffic to other airports), so when you say "circle to 1", you're not really flying a circling maneuver on a charted instrument approach, you're flying a visual approach to a different runway. Which is fine, as long as we are all clear on what's going on. I'm not sure we all are. It being TEB, there's an enormous amount of pressure to move metal, and a few steps may be getting skipped. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB (and subsequently the FAA) wind up saying about this sad event. I would give dollars to donuts that there will be some sharpening up on what various terms mean and what a pilot's (and controller's) responsibilities are in various categories of approach. Always has to be written in blood, doesn't it?
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Once you accept a visual, on your head be it. To clarify, I don't believe that TEB tower would ever issue an actual clearance to circle to 1 from a legitimate IMC approach to 6. I stand open to correction on this.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
That's what I'm wondering. Same with what Boris posted:
Is this a case of flying an actual published instrument approach and using the circling minima? (And the obstacle protected airspace provided)?
Or is it flying an instrument approach, breaking off of it and just entering the pattern for another runway?
Which, either of which should be the same, if circling minima exist for your approach Category: the same obstructions you should be protected from in an obstacle protected area, should be the same ones you deal with if just breaking off visually and making a pattern for another runway. It shouldn't be different, unless.....
the aforementioned pressure or urging of ATC, to some policy or localism. If that's indeed going on, that may be something the NTSB would be interested in. In the end though, and ultimately, it's up to the PIC to say unable when appropriate. Regardless of whatever urging or unwritten policy, and before entering the square corner he/she cannot get out of.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
I don't know about tower but I know no one at the Tracon tells people to keep their circle tight. We're more worried about you crossing DANDY at 1500' than your circle.
Seems some pilots feel some pressure of some sort to do so. It would be interesting to see [if indeed a fact, I don't know if it is or not, for the record], where that idea or mindset is emanating from.