TEB crash 5/15/17

MikeD said:
Seems some pilots feel some pressure of some sort to do so. It would be interesting to see [if indeed a fact, I don't know if it is or not, for the record], where that idea or mindset is emanating from.
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It could just be that they hear the 50 other planes lined up behind them. And like I said, I don't know if the tower tells them to keep it tight or something like that.
 
As far as I've understood it. "Cleared for the visual" whether you're circling or not, getting to the runway is completely on the pilots. Altitude/heading/traffic separation is on you. If they give you a "keep your base turn inside two miles, cleared to land runway 12" either you can or you can't but it's up to you to let them know.
 
NovemberEcho said:
I don't know about tower but I know no one at the Tracon tells people to keep their circle tight. We're more worried about you crossing DANDY at 1500' than your circle.
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Me arriving at TEB "DANDY at 1500, DANDY AT 1500, HEY DUDE DONT FORGET TO REMIND ME: DANDY AT 1500"

Me departing TEB "WENTZ AT 1500, WENTZ AT 1500, DUDE DONT FORGET TO REMIND ME ABOUT WENTZ AT 1500"


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PositionAndHold said:
As far as I've understood it. "Cleared for the visual" whether you're circling or not, getting to the runway is completely on the pilots. Altitude/heading/traffic separation is on you. If they give you a "keep your base turn inside two miles, cleared to land runway 12" either you can or you can't but it's up to you to let them know.
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The magical words of "unable"
 
Boris Badenov said:
To expand, for the Regs Wizards out there, my understanding is that a circling maneuver is a portion of an instrument approach, therefore the protected area applies. I'm pretty sure that the protected area would allow one to fly MUCH further out from the field than NY Approach wants you to go (for the aforementioned conflicts with traffic to other airports), so when you say "circle to 1", you're not really flying a circling maneuver on a charted instrument approach, you're flying a visual approach to a different runway. Which is fine, as long as we are all clear on what's going on. I'm not sure we all are. It being TEB, there's an enormous amount of pressure to move metal, and a few steps may be getting skipped. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB (and subsequently the FAA) wind up saying about this sad event. I would give dollars to donuts that there will be some sharpening up on what various terms mean and what a pilot's (and controller's) responsibilities are in various categories of approach. Always has to be written in blood, doesn't it?
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Part 91 repo leg:

Pilots thrown under bus, business as usual continues. Carry on.


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PositionAndHold said:
As far as I've understood it. "Cleared for the visual" whether you're circling or not, getting to the runway is completely on the pilots. Altitude/heading/traffic separation is on you.
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Agreed. Just like if you're flying a formal circle off an instrument approach, barring any circling restrictions, you can circle anywhere around the airport, at or above MDA as much as you like and as the WX allows, and as far as your protected radius for category again as WX allows.

Same with a visual maneuver to another runway: if circling minima happen to exist for you, then you know you have the same obstacle protections as you would if you were formally circling off of an approach....just as something to keep in mind. Barring any ATC restrictions, how you do it is on you indeed.

If they give you a "keep your base turn inside two miles, cleared to land runway 12" either you can or you can't but it's up to you to let them know.
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Agreed. As well as let them know sooner rather than later, if at all possible; but definitely let them know at anytime the inability is realized.
 
NovemberEcho said:
The magical words of "unable"
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Yup. On a tight circle I tend to not square any turns as long as it doesn't conflict with traffic. I tend to do a shallow constant turn/descent from downwind to short final. There is less yanking and banking while fully configured. It's not the standard "stablized" approach but is more stable then a harsh base to final turn.
 
Beautiful part about helos: no circling minima. Flew an ILS the other day with 25G32 quartering tailwind, fly down to DA, break out of the simulated overcast, and make a tight slowing turn into the wind, with the option to sidestep to the taxiway opposite direction, or just proceed direct to the pad at 50 AGL, or even low-hover taxi down the taxiways to the parking area and land into the wind there.

Don't have to bother with VDPs either..
 
PositionAndHold said:
Yup. On a tight circle I tend to not square any turns as long as it doesn't conflict with traffic. I tend to do a shallow constant turn/descent from downwind to short final. There is less yanking and banking while fully configured. It's not the standard "stablized" approach but is more stable then a harsh base to final turn.
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I'd argue that it actually is a stabilized approach, just not a wings-level one. You're just stabilized in a turn towards the runway. Perfectly safe when planned ahead (x-winds primarily for over/undershooting) and flown correctly.
 
MikeD said:
I'd argue that it actually is a stabilized approach, just not a wings-level one. You're just stabilized in a turn towards the runway. Perfectly safe when planned ahead (x-winds primarily for over/undershooting) and flown correctly.
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I'd agree but the airline training in me says it's not. Luckily "I am th Captain now!" Have yet to bend any thing. Knock on wood.
 
MikeD said:
Beautiful part about helos: no circling minima. Flew an ILS the other day with 25G32 quartering tailwind, fly down to DA, break out of the simulated overcast, and make a tight slowing turn into the wind, with the option to sidestep to the taxiway opposite direction, or just proceed direct to the pad at 50 AGL, or even low-hover taxi down the taxiways to the parking area and land into the wind there.

Don't have to bother with VDPs either..
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That's cuz helo's are not natural. A million moving parts flying formation around an oil leak. Nope. :)
 
PositionAndHold said:
I'd agree but the airline training in me says it's not. Luckily "I am th Captain now!" Have yet to bend any thing. Knock on wood.
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Stabilized for us is on speed, constant stable flight path and descent rate. That can be in a wings level straight in, or a final turn from a perch point to a 300/1 final.

Theoretically, no one flying into Kai Tak ever had a stabilized approach, under the current airline criteria. :)
 
PositionAndHold said:
That's cuz helo's are not natural. A million moving parts flying formation around an oil leak. Nope. :)
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[Shameless sidebar]

Unlike airplanes, helicopters simply have a death wish, wanting to commit suicide at all times, and waiting for the right moment when the pilot isn't paying attention, so they can take you with them. It's nothing personal.......for they do warn you beforehand: The helicopter does in fact talk to you at all times. But woe be the pilot who 1. Doesn't listen to what the helicopter is telling him (complacency), or 2. Doesn't fully understand the language the helicopter is speaking (inexperience); for the helicopter will interpert both of these failures to listen to it, as a pilot who also has a suicidal death wish same as the helicopter, and who gladly wants to share with the helicopter a double-suicide fate. A fate the helicopter is more than happy to accomodate. And the helicopter is, and has always been, equal opportunity in this regard; for it harbors no hatred, holds no personal grudges, and does not discriminate in any way, shape, or form.

Helicopters have no friends, don't want any friends, and don't care to be your friend. Understand that, and one will be fine as the pilot of them.

[/sidebar] :D
 
RIP.

9019109c3c07e6a3eb57bd3a5aacaa53.png
 
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