fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Guess your right. That's what they don't show MOA's on VFR charts.
Stop Flying in MOAs
- Thread starter mhcasey
- Start date
Guess your right. That's what they don't show MOA's on VFR charts.
ian
Well-Known Member
mtlatc
New Member
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I ask a question, and you respond with that?
Now I'm really confused.
I see MOAs on my VFR and IFR charts.
The differences lie in analyzing each individual MOA and their altitude limits in respect to victor airways flowing under / over them. For example, the MOODY 1 runs from 8000 to FL180, with Victor airways operating BELOW the MOA's airspace - at least on the L-18 I'm looking at.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Sorry, there are too many MOAs around in Texas not to fly through them sometimes. I'm not going to increase my flight by 50% or more just to go around them.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Thank you.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
I ask a question, and you respond with that?
Now I'm really confused.
I see MOAs on my VFR and IFR charts.
You didn't really get your charts out and check, did you?
Wow,after reading the 1st page, I see all the many facets of this. I see the side of the military flyers and the GA flyers. I can see why they don't restric the airspace. We are in a good position with all the places and airports we have and the airspace we share with the military. And it's a good system thats in place to allow us to enjoy all these airports. To the military flyers, thanks for sharing with us, and I'm sorry that I may rain on your parade somedays. After reading the NTSB report I am glad to aviod your training area when it's hot. I will admit to not always checking, but I will for sure now. But if I have a purpose, I will still go in, and at the least get advisories.
I think the NTSB report attached to this thread is a perfect storm of sorts. Marginal weather, VFR/IFR traffic, no radio/x-sonder. Very sad indeed.
I think the NTSB report attached to this thread is a perfect storm of sorts. Marginal weather, VFR/IFR traffic, no radio/x-sonder. Very sad indeed.
sdfcvoh
This is my Custom Title
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Again, some MOA's are very busy (think the ones around jet training bases where we run 40+ events a day), while others only get occasional use. The whole 3 weeks I was out in El Centro last fall, I only saw the Turtle MOA's go hot a handful of times. Socal guys probably have to contend a little more with the Hunter type MOA's that see a lot of Hornet training flights, etc. I'm sure you probably do check when you go through, but it can pay off to be familiar with normal operating hours/etc of areas you frequently fly around. Also knowing which areas guys pop out VFR from can help, as mil traffic can be a little more unpredictable out of these areas.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
There is only one place I've ever noticed an airway going through a MOA and this is only because my student pointed it out to meirate:.
I'm sure there are more. I would imagine that no IFR traffic is allowed on the airway while the MOA is active.
Haven't flown around those areas before, but certain MOA's have altitude deconfliction with IFR routes as well.
There is only one place I've ever noticed an airway going through a MOA and this is only because my student pointed it out to me
I'm sure there are more. I would imagine that no IFR traffic is allowed on the airway while the MOA is active.
Tell you're student to look closer.......
That's my old stomping grounds, and the airway doesn't run through it. The V66 airway is capped at 13,000. Tombstone C starts at 14,500 (IIRC) because it was the high airbridge between Tombstone's A and B. Tombstone's A and B went down to 500AGL, because those were both A-10 MOAs we used to use often, but C existed in order to cross between the two, OR to do high air-air work and have one continuous MOA, yet STILL allow for aircraft to go IFR out of Douglas to the northeast underneath.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Tell you're student to look closer.......
That's my old stomping grounds, and the airway doesn't run through it. The V66 airway is capped at 13,000. Tombstone C starts at 14,500 (IIRC) because it was the high airbridge between Tombstone's A and B. Tombstone's A and B went down to 500AGL, because those were both A-10 MOAs we used to use often, but C existed in order to cross between the two, OR to do high air-air work and have one continuous MOA, yet STILL allow for aircraft to go IFR out of Douglas to the northeast underneath.
Figured as much about that one. Word to the wise (for those who don't know), you can find all the altitude info, normal active hours, and contact/controlling agency info on the back of your chart. Probably a good thing to look through if you know you are going to be working around any sort of special use airspace. From a military standpoint, we make great pains to avoid areas we aren't working, or at least to check in on common (or guard) and ensure deconfliction when unable. No reason that this level of SA should only be limited to us.
germb747
Well-Known Member
Before I joined the military, I would have told you to pound sand. Now that I've seen both sides of it, I can tell you that you won't find me flying GA aircraft VFR in an active MOA. Take that for what it's worth to you.
Yes, you can legally go in there and I'm not going to tell you you can't. But legality aside, be aware the risk of danger to yourself and your aircraft goes up substantially when flying in MOAs and Alert Areas. You find very high performance military aircraft operating with any airspeed, any attitude, and any ability to see you coming.
Flying safely is all about the risks you're willing to accept and mitigate.
Yes, you can legally go in there and I'm not going to tell you you can't. But legality aside, be aware the risk of danger to yourself and your aircraft goes up substantially when flying in MOAs and Alert Areas. You find very high performance military aircraft operating with any airspeed, any attitude, and any ability to see you coming.
Flying safely is all about the risks you're willing to accept and mitigate.
Agree. Perspectives do change somewhat after having seen both sides of the equation.
ian
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
when i flew GA before i started military flying i was ignorant and didn't really think too much of it.....now, i'd never do it
Callador
New Member
I worked out of GTR and I have to agree with the military guys. Once you see the T38's, T1's, and T6's blasting around, you know it isn't a good idea to be sharing airspace with them. Heck, even the traffic pattern at GTR can be a pain with a bunch of T6's doing touch-and-goes in the pattern. Half of the guys broadcast just on UHF to the tower etc... although I know they are working on having them all on VHF.
Poor ASA airlines got the "change route to read" every day... not sure why they never had dispatch just file it the correct way.
I always got a laugh listening to some poor FO try and read back the clearance. It got butchered every time. Of course they are IFR, but I think when you are flying a cessna VFR it is prudent to do the same thing, considering little GA aircraft have a lot less ways to help them detect other aircraft that just might be on a collision course.
Great discussion!
Poor ASA airlines got the "change route to read" every day... not sure why they never had dispatch just file it the correct way.
I always got a laugh listening to some poor FO try and read back the clearance. It got butchered every time. Of course they are IFR, but I think when you are flying a cessna VFR it is prudent to do the same thing, considering little GA aircraft have a lot less ways to help them detect other aircraft that just might be on a collision course.Great discussion!
ian
Well-Known Member
I worked out of GTR and I have to agree with the military guys. Once you see the T38's, T1's, and T6's blasting around, you know it isn't a good idea to be sharing airspace with them. Heck, even the traffic pattern at GTR can be a pain with a bunch of T6's doing touch-and-goes in the pattern. Half of the guys broadcast just on UHF to the tower etc... although I know they are working on having them all on VHF.
Poor ASA airlines got the "change route to read" every day... not sure why they never had dispatch just file it the correct way.
Great discussion!
RAS?