Stop Flying in MOAs

That being said, I typically will also find a way to not fly through a MOA if it is hot and their are not expensive alternatives. When I do fly through a MOA, I am always on flight following. Nowadays, I am almost always on an IFR flight plan so it is pretty much moot. I would cancel and go VFR if it meant tons of extra miles though. Hate me for it. I don't care.
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I agree with that. Western Oklahoma is the same way MOAs everywhere. Before I start a flight I will look at them and look to see if they are hot or not. I will do my best to avoid them. However, if I'm flying a light single and it looks like it will take a lot of time to go around then I will go through. I will use VFR flight following, with my head out the window, while I am in one though. I will try to avoid, but if not I will fly through it smartly.
 
Sisson2011 said:
I agree with that. Western Oklahoma is the same way MOAs everywhere. Before I start a flight I will look at them and look to see if they are hot or not. I will do my best to avoid them. However, if I'm flying a light single and it looks like it will take a lot of time to go around then I will go through. I will use VFR flight following, with my head out the window, while I am in one though. I will try to avoid, but if not I will fly through it smartly.
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And that's a reasonable way to go about it, IMHO. Mitigating the risk as much as reasonably possible; and not just doing the "screw that, I'll blindly plow through because I legally can!"

Now if only more on the GA side saw it the way you do....
 
Since we are on subject, the Thunderbirds apparently will be using the Pine Hills East MOA tomorrow if anyone is around to watch.
 
So I was looking at the altitudes for a local MOA (JPG A). On the sectional tab it shows the altitudes being as 500 to 6000, but where it is actually charted there is a note saying that it does not include the airspace below 4000AGL. What is the point of having it start at 500 if they aren't going to include below 4k?
 
I had a check pilot get us in one by mistake. Luckily it wasn't active at the time. Other than that, I've never been in one.
 
Hacker15e said:
Go find out when MOAs are hot, and by all means when they're cold go through there. When they're hot, though, don't think you're standing up for your GA rights by flying through there. You're really exposing yourself to needless risk and crapping on military training.
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I think that what you and Mike posted needs to be part of the training of any GA pilot. AOPA had an article a while ago where someone rode along with a military pilot doing training in an MOA. And they were able to see a GA aircraft by just dumb luck, kind of like what Mike wrote.

I think the real danger to GA pilots is that if you guys are moving at military speeds, there a very good chance we won't see you.

We're used to looking at Cessnas moving at 100 knots, not military aircraft at 500 knots.

Add in that your paint job is designed to keep people from seeing you, and even if we're keeping our head on swivel there is a good chance that we won't see you.

If you don't see an airplane, you sure as hell can't avoid it. And even if we do see you, we may not be able to avoid you because the speeds you move at are far greater than what we are used to.

What would be a near miss between two aircraft moving at 100 knots each may very well become a mid-air if you've got one moving at 100 knots and another moving at 500.
 
2.

We can punch if there's a midair. You can't. That and you really *goof* *stuff* up when you fly directly through the pattern of our aux airfield.


*Good game, censors.


The T-6 has TAS, which is a TCAS equivalent, and does give you some SA. Some jets have NACWS, though, which is the Navy version and it's effing worthless.
 
Persian_Pilot said:
Mike, don't you guys have TCAS or something similar in military aircrafts?
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Not any in fighters, they're primarily in transport aircraft. Air-air birds would be running search radar, but depending on how it's setup (range/azimuth/sweep....even airspeed gate), they may or may not see a GA aircraft if it's outside the above parameters.
 
Easier said then done where I fly---

Nothing but MOA's around me --Eastern NC-Charlotte Sectional/Charlotte side- alllllll the wayyyyy to the right side. Dealing with MOA's was seriously a part of my PPL training.

And I have had my share of waiving at F-15E's/F-16's/EA-6B's/FA-18's/V-22's/C-130's/C-5's/A-10's/CH-53's and even a UAV or two (though I don't wave at them just turn away!)
 
tonyw said:
I think that what you and Mike posted needs to be part of the training of any GA pilot. AOPA had an article a while ago where someone rode along with a military pilot doing training in an MOA. And they were able to see a GA aircraft by just dumb luck, kind of like what Mike wrote.
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And thats what its been for me, sheer dumb luck. Again, not because I'm not seeing and avoiding, but because my ability to have the time and attention to see and avoid, is severely diminished by the mission I'm performing.

I think the real danger to GA pilots is that if you guys are moving at military speeds, there a very good chance we won't see you.

We're used to looking at Cessnas moving at 100 knots, not military aircraft at 500 knots.

Add in that your paint job is designed to keep people from seeing you, and even if we're keeping our head on swivel there is a good chance that we won't see you.
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Very true. The paintjob is a big part of it, as I mentioned before. Oftentimes, I have trouble enough finding my own aircraft, much less GA trying to see me/us.

If you don't see an airplane, you sure as hell can't avoid it. And even if we do see you, we may not be able to avoid you because the speeds you move at are far greater than what we are used to.

What would be a near miss between two aircraft moving at 100 knots each may very well become a mid-air if you've got one moving at 100 knots and another moving at 500.
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Correct. And the inability to avoid goes both ways......by the time I see you, if I see you, I may not be able to do anything about it either.

So, all these are simply risk things to think about if one needs to cross a hot MOA. Be wary of these and mitigate them as smartly as possible.

The GA airplane has one major advantage, though: generally speaking, his ONLY job he really has to do is see and avoid, apart from flying and navigating. There's no other mission set to distract him, he's just tooling along straight and level......the proverbial fat/dumb/happy descriptor, again generally speaking. For me, the opposite is true. If I spend all my time seeing and avoiding, I'm not getting my mission items accomplished efficiently or even at all. I have the balancing act of dividing my time with these, and the mission is the one with the priority.....see and avoid comes as able. That sucks, and legally I'm just as responsible as anyone else when VMC to see and avoid; but that's just an operational reality.
 
MikeD said:
Not any in fighters, they're primarily in transport aircraft. Air-air birds would be running search radar, but depending on how it's setup (range/azimuth/sweep....even airspeed gate), they may or may not see a GA aircraft if it's outside the above parameters.
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Thanks, I would also assume that you guys are extremely busy and chances are don't have time to focus on the radar if one is even available.


I'm curious, Is there a reason why MOA's don't become restricted when they are hot?
From a safety stand point, I think it would be a great idea. But hey, what do I know...
 
Persian_Pilot said:
Thanks, I would also assume that you guys are extremely busy and chances are don't have time to focus on the radar if one is even available.
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That depends. Guys running radar, as in air-air fighters, they're very much using it....but lets just say its not scanning all over the sky......it's set certain ways for certain situations, and thus limited in that way. So it's not like that since there's a radar onboard, the pilot can see all the planes in the sky (a common misconception).

I'm curious, Is there a reason why MOA's don't become restricted when they are hot?
From a safety stand point, I think it would be a great idea. But hey, what do I know...
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My opinion only: It's because it would restrict too much airspace in the CONUS for GA/airline/other ops. MOAs cover SO much "airborne real estate" in the US, that making them all Restricted Areas would be just too restrictive to air commerce, the flying public, etc.....basically, the taxpayer. Could a couple be made? Maybe. Plus, all thats really going on in a MOA is high speed work and high performance maneuvering; but no weapons expenditures (which is still very risky though). This is where Restricted Areas come in. Restricted Areas generally are for that. So while making them all Restricted Areas would help from a safety standpoint vis-a-vis midairs between military and GA, it's not a very practical solution for efficiency purposes.
 
I guess we have had one to many close calls w/ F-16's out of Luke so they are opening up a SADAR(SP?). Some type of mandatory radar environment controlled by Luke. Just hope they are staffed properly for this move.
 
jhugz said:
I guess we have had one to many close calls w/ F-16's out of Luke so they are opening up a SADAR(SP?). Some type of mandatory radar environment controlled by Luke. Just hope they are staffed properly for this move.
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Is Alert Area 231 being replaced by this? Normally, Baghdad/Gladden MOA north of Luke was the area planes heading VFR to LAS, IGM etc would transit through, with IFR planes having to go north over DRK Vortac, then northwest. There's alot of activity with the F-16s in those particular MOAs, but nothing thats been a major problem. The only exception being the PC-12 and the F-16 which formed up on it, following the PC-12 cruising through an air-air engagement the F-16s were conducting. Maybe thats a driving factor for this.
 
MikeD said:
Is Alert Area 231 being replaced by this? Normally, Baghdad/Gladden MOA north of Luke was the area planes heading VFR to LAS, IGM etc would transit through, with IFR planes having to go north over DRK Vortac, then northwest. There's alot of activity with the F-16s in those particular MOAs, but nothing thats been a major problem. The only exception being the PC-12 and the F-16 which formed up on it, following the PC-12 cruising through an air-air engagement the F-16s were conducting. Maybe thats a driving factor for this.
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Yep it's going to replace Alert Area 231. IDK y I was thinking it was a MOA instead of an alert area. ? ... beside what the book says what is the difference between an MOA and an Alert area to you guys. I know that those F-16's come hauling into the alert area into luke and shoot APP into Aux 2 in the Alert Area. Is there just no combat maneuvers?
 
MikeD said:
Is Alert Area 231 being replaced by this? Normally, Baghdad/Gladden MOA north of Luke was the area planes heading VFR to LAS, IGM etc would transit through, with IFR planes having to go north over DRK Vortac, then northwest. There's alot of activity with the F-16s in those particular MOAs, but nothing thats been a major problem. The only exception being the PC-12 and the F-16 which formed up on it, following the PC-12 cruising through an air-air engagement the F-16s were conducting. Maybe thats a driving factor for this.
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I don't think it has anything to do with any particular incident, it is just sheer volume. The A-231 is smack damn in the middle of the northwest practice area, and nearly all of the local schools use it on a regular basis.

Typically when operating in the area you would give Luke a call and get radar service, however it was not obligatory and you had your fair share of air traffic that didn't bother. Needless to say that trying to provide separation of aircraft whereas one is on frequency with Luke and receiving radar service and the other is not was a bit trying.

Reps from Luke would come to our school usually twice a year and plead their case to us, regarding the use of Luke approach while operating in the practice area. I recall that the SADAR was first proposed about 18 months ago, now it is finally a reality.

For me nothing will change, I always use Luke approach control while I operate in the area, and now everyone will (Below 6500' that is).
 
X-Forces said:
I don't think it has anything to do with any particular incident, it is just sheer volume. The A-231 is smack damn in the middle of the northwest practice area, and nearly all of the local schools use it on a regular basis.

Typically when operating in the area you would give Luke a call and get radar service, however it was not obligatory and you had your fair share of air traffic that didn't bother. Needless to say that trying to provide separation of aircraft whereas one is on frequency with Luke and receiving radar service and the other is not was a bit trying.

Reps from Luke would come to our school usually twice a year and plead their case to us, regarding the use of Luke approach while operating in the practice area. I recall that the SADAR was first proposed about 18 months ago, now it is finally a reality.

For me nothing will change, I always use Luke approach control while I operate in the area, and now everyone will (Below 6500' that is).
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Interesting. Guess we'll see how it works out. That area has always been busy.

JHugs, the Alert area is so named in that area because it's a departure/recovery corridor for high speed jet activity, but the jets don't actually hang around there and train with each other, as they would in a MOA (aside from the aux field practice approaches). It's more of a "heads up" area for pilots transiting north of Luke's Class D, to be aware of that. Back in the day, there was Alert 232 south of Luke and GYR, over the Estrella's, that was notated as "High speed climbs and descents" since it was the recovery area to/from Luke for the southwest ranges.

Of course, this may all be for not. If I were a betting man, and with all the encroachment/noise and airspace problems Luke has, my bet would be that Luke AFB isn't going to get a follow-on F-35 mission and just might be the new Glendale Municipal Airport in the next 8-10 years.
 
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