Stop Flying in MOAs

mhcasey said:
About one a week in the Sheppard MOAs.



Certain MOAs should definitely be restricted. Not sure I can personally do anything to change that though. I just don't think most GA guys realize the kind of maneuvering going on out there and how dangerous it can be for everyone involved.



We get them on low levels out here all the time too. Good stuff...
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we'd see them on low levels, but never really had to avoid them
 
The rules are the rules and we can share the airspace. If it was a really important area it would be restricted.
 
MikeD said:
Did I say I didn't want you in there? No. I said that it isn't smart for GA to be going through active MOAs. You can safely fly through a cold MOA all day. However, if a GA guy must fly through a MOA for whatever reason, there are ways to mitigate the risk.

I don't know where you're getting that I want everyone to stay away.
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I got the impression, not necessarily from you specifically, that it would be best to keep non-military traffic out of MOA's. Sorry if I tried to put words in your mouth.

Again, dumb to bust off through a hot MOA. That means, knowing what the status of said MOA is, is important. And listening to the approach/center controlling the area isn't really going to help you much, since the aircraft inside the MOA aren't normally talking to them, they're on a discreet. You only get people checking in/out, generally. The best thing is to either avoid, or have a head on a swivel if you must go through. Many MOAs, GA can generally avoid them by going under them, even if they're hot.
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Fair enough. I make sure when I do go through one, that the plane is light up like the proverbial christmas tree.
 
MikeD said:
That was the last AF vs GA midair. There have been several at KIWA here in PHX when it was still an Air Base back in the day.
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What I meant was any one of three approach controls could have been involved in it.
 
Rudabega said:
I will stay out of yours if you stay out of mine. Seriously grow up, the rules are the rules and we can share the airspace. If it was a really important area it would be restricted.
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ignorance is bliss

it's extremely important and I would be willing to bet that 75% of GA blitzing through a MOA have no idea what is going on inside it
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Didn't say it was. But, if the military really doesn't want the general population in there, restrict it. Otherwise, they get to play by the same rules we do.
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I agree, but what if they don't play by the same rules? Remember, MOAs are established to separate military activity from IFR traffic, so it's probably a good idea to at least be receiving flight following if you enter one. I wouldn't enter a MOA without talking to anyone just because, hey they didn't restrict it so they're just going to have to deal with me.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I got the impression, not necessarily from you specifically, that it would be best to keep non-military traffic out of MOA's. Sorry if I tried to put words in your mouth.
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No problem. The way I look at MOAs now is from a practical perspective. Since it's legal to fly through for anyone, then the best I can do is see and avoid, and hope someone else is doing the same, if they choose to not go around the MOA...or, if they even know it's there (many times, pilots don't know its there.....hard to believe, but true). But since it's legal, I can only hope that the other guy wanting to go through is doing it as smartly as possible.....and I'm sure he probably hopes I'm doing it too.

Fair enough. I make sure when I do go through one, that the plane is light up like the proverbial christmas tree.
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That and good lookout is about the best you can do.

To expand on my point above, I also see MOAs in the same light as I think of airport noise complains and noise abatement. Airports and homeowners need to co-exist, regardless of "who was there first". For my part, I do what I can to fly neighborly, within safely reasonable.

In the MOA example, I can only hope that GA pilots who do transit through them also try to be neighborly, by doing their homework first regards hot/cold, operating altitudes of the MOA, and all the other aforementioned risk mitigation methods that can be done.
 
Ah the comedy.

So stereotypical I won't even bother.

Follow the rules is all I can offer up to the novice pilots learning various airspaces.
 
tjvpa28 said:
MOAs are established to separate military activity from IFR traffic
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I've never heard that one before.

tjvpa28 said:
I wouldn't enter a MOA without talking to anyone just because, hey they didn't restrict it so they're just going to have to deal with me.
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I was 5 miles clear of a MOA near Palm Springs at 6500 when they called traffic.

Traffic 12 o'clock, 5 miles opposite direction descending though 9000, 380 knots, two targets, I'm not talking to them.

I really don't want to deal with them in a MOA.
 
fholbert said:
I've never heard that one before.
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What pilot certificates do you hold?

How many MOA's do you see with Victor routes flouting right on through them?

(think non-radar environment) not the D-> IFR traffic, provided when a MOA is cold.

How long ago were you at a RAPCON? Current controlling position?
 
ian said:
IFR traffic doesn't go through active MOAs.......at least I haven't seen it
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Nope... not allowed to. Part of "traffic separation" and all. We routinely go through them if they are cold either by request or if ATC offers a shortcut.

I sure as hell tried to stay out of them when I was flying GA but eastbound out of IWA there really wasn't an option a lot of the time. Best thing you could do was ask AQB if they were cold and if not, try to stay below them, head on a swivel and hope for the best.

Interestingly enough the two biggest scares I ever had were near MTRs, not in MOAs.
 
ian said:
IFR traffic doesn't go through active MOAs.......at least I haven't seen it
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On the IFR vs MOAs issue. Lets all get the semantics on the same page, first off. No airways run through MOAs. Off-route IFR aircraft can be cleared/vectored through cold MOAs, which I've had. However, they won't be sent/vectored/cleared through a hot or scheduled MOA.

VFR traffic is do as you please, with MOAs.

EDIT: Bob beat me!
 
MikeD said:
On the IFR vs MOAs issue. Lets all get the semantics on the same page, first off. No airways run through MOAs. Off-route IFR aircraft can be cleared/vectored through cold MOAs, which I've had. However, they won't be sent/vectored/cleared through a hot or scheduled MOA.

VFR traffic is do as you please, with MOAs.

EDIT: Bob beat me!
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just making sure i had my facts right....

IRC on Thursday.....guess I already need it haha
 
There are certainly some MOA's where it would behoove anyone to avoid. Case in point would be the Meridian 1 West MOA out here....pretty much always active, and activity can range from relatively benign formation flying, to full on 2v1 ACM. We have pretty good help from Memphis ctr here in terms of identifying conflicting traffic, but honestly, you really need to be up MOA common freq to have any real idea what is going on (and most civilian folks don't use UHF that I know of). The reality is that on the wrong day, at the wrong time, with the wrong radio chatter and environmentals, flying through an active MOA can be a quick way to end your life in a plume of pink mist (and perhaps mine too). Please just be careful out there!
 
///AMG said:
There are certainly some MOA's where it would behoove anyone to avoid. Case in point would be the Meridian 1 West MOA out here....pretty much always active, and activity can range from relatively benign formation flying, to full on 2v1 ACM. We have pretty good help from Memphis ctr here in terms of identifying conflicting traffic, but honestly, you really need to be up MOA common freq to have any real idea what is going on (and most civilian folks don't use UHF that I know of). The reality is that on the wrong day, at the wrong time, with the wrong radio chatter and environmentals, flying through an active MOA can be a quick way to end your life in a plume of pink mist (and perhaps mine too). Please just be careful out there!
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And Columbus 1 and Columbus 3
 
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