State of hiring for the mediocre.

ASpilot2be said:
Positive space to work is huge. I left the left seat at a ULCC to go to a place that buys me a ticket to work.
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Exactly the part I like about the 8/6. That day 1 and day 8 positive space home, even after a long 8 days, seems to have a lot of stress relief appeal. But the whole 135 world an unknown to me as my flying from long ago was all 121 regional. So a little fear factor of the unknown versus 121 which I loved but not sure I can accept the commute as I will not relocate. It's literally the $60k question and time home question.
 
SteveC said:
I think you’ll do well whichever way you go because you have a good grasp of what you’re getting into.

Look, I’m a pro Northern Jet guy (duh), but I decided to retire rather than keep flying because the 8/6 schedule didn’t work for what I wanted at that point in my life. And my living in base on the Learjet fleet meant that I would probably sleep in my own bed on many of those 8 “On” days (nights, actually), but I don’t have a clue if that would be true on the CJ fleet or not.

The one thing that I am sure of is that the pilot management guys there that I know are dedicated to running a truly safe operation. While I don’t know what the current workload there looks like (it was getting pretty heavy during and post-Covid), I do know that fatigue and overwork concerns will be heard and addressed. It was not the stereotypical 135 operation that gets bandied about, and I seriously doubt that it could have devolved that far in 2 years.

Wishing you all the best!
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Yes. Management there does seem first class and the whole operation seems great. Pay is low compared to market and the 2 year training contract a concern. But on the flip side, those things don't bother me much since frankly, it still pays a lot more than I make on disability and the 8/6 while seems like a tough schedule, at least I am home in my own bed an average of 13 days a month since positive space flights are a good thing compared to a stressful airline commute via standy. And that positive space ticket will keep my stress down. And I need be careful since I am coming back from a sleeping disorder of Excessive Daytime Sleepiness. While it is now resolved, I do not need any issues to resurface if I get worked like a dog or overly stressed (per the AME).
 
TexasFlyer said:
It's about $1,400 a month all in for a room in someone's house at any of their bases. And an airport car would set me back like $8k, one time purchase for something reliable enough to feel good about. So at least when I could not get home, I'd have a decent comfort level versus some crash pad. So about $20k a year for a place and car and car insurance and incidentals. Call it $30k a year due to being after tax money. Lower my $190k-ish by $30k. So it is only like a $30k difference between jobs when looking at it that way. Hence, it's truly a "which position will get me home more to my beach house". Also, I have zero experience in the 135 charter world so not even sure if I would like it. But I can say when I worked at PSA prior and lived in Knoxville and was based in Knoxville, I enjoyed working at PSA. Only reason I hesitate and I like this conversation is that I am trying to take in everyone's opinion to determine if I can survive the commute since NJM is a great opportunity that if I turn that down, that's a bridge I can't cross again. So making the best decision I can with input from any resources I have.
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Heres what I do…

(Not on reserve)
Airport hotel : 100$ a night at “crew rate”. Free shuttle and breakfast.
On average 0-3 nights a month. So budget 300$ a month as my commuter expeense


(Reserve)
350-500$ for crash pad, (single bed/ shared room)+ 100$ for uber to and from. So 600$ total. . There are many options in between obviously , many crash pads have a “crew car”, if youre in a city, rent one of those diabolical scooters, take the train or bus if feesable.
 
Best of luck though, I apologize if any of my answers sounded a bit crass, I just wanted to give you the straight dope of my experience as a relatively new FO in 121, coming from 135.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Yes. Management there does seem first class and the whole operation seems great. Pay is low compared to market and the 2 year training contract a concern. But on the flip side, those things don't bother me much since frankly, it still pays a lot more than I make on disability and the 8/6 while seems like a tough schedule, at least I am home in my own bed an average of 13 days a month since positive space flights are a good thing compared to a stressful airline commute via standy. And that positive space ticket will keep my stress down. And I need be careful since I am coming back from a sleeping disorder of Excessive Daytime Sleepiness. While it is now resolved, I do not need any issues to resurface if I get worked like a dog or overly stressed (per the AME).
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Yeah, I didn’t/don’t like the training contract, but I understand it. (While it definitely does help weed out the ones that were planning on getting a type rating + 100 hours and then bailing to greener pastures, in this case it’s also a byproduct of lower than industry standard pay and, IMHO, projects a negative image. *shrug*)

Again I’m not familiar with the CJ operation, but on the Michigan/Florida based Learjet side the hotels were typically first choice Hilton brand (you get to keep the points - and I’m still Diamond two years later!) and a rental car for any overnight was SOP, including fuel, and miscellaneous things like uniform cleaning costs and cell phones were also paid for. There were also vendor fuel incentive programs that could add a few dollars for the pilot as well, but understand that the company would dictate which vendor to use based on their pricing (but they didn’t object to pilot incentive programs ($) as long as they did not harm the company’s bottom line).

I’m sure you get the airline points for all the positioning flights you take as well. Those add up quickly, and tickets you purchase with points (for leisure travel) are positive space as well.
 
SteveC said:
Yeah, I didn’t/don’t like the training contract, but I understand it. (While it definitely does help weed out the ones that were planning on getting a type rating + 100 hours and then bailing to greener pastures, in this case it’s also a byproduct of lower than industry standard pay and, IMHO, projects a negative image. *shrug*)

Again I’m not familiar with the CJ operation, but on the Michigan/Florida based Learjet side the hotels were typically first choice Hilton brand (you get to keep the points - and I’m still Diamond two years later!) and a rental car for any overnight was SOP, including fuel, and miscellaneous things like uniform cleaning costs and cell phones were also paid for. There were also vendor fuel incentive programs that could add a few dollars for the pilot as well, but understand that the company would dictate which vendor to use based on their pricing (but they didn’t object to pilot incentive programs ($) as long as they did not harm the company’s bottom line).

I’m sure you get the airline points for all the positioning flights you take as well. Those add up quickly, and tickets you purchase with points (for leisure travel) are positive space as well.
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You hit the nail on the head on this one with the image that training contract portrays. I also fear that sets me up to be overworked by maxing out the 135 rules consistently. That could be exhausting and actually dangerous given my history.

My AME made it clear that this is my one chance to get back to work and see that I can maintain my health, so I need to be very careful about overworking or jumping in over my head. And the FAA is watching as I am being monitored by a specific doctor.

The airline world of PSA is known to me and I know the regulations on that side. I am sure the duty day is quite leisurely compared to NJM. At PSA I would rarely be putting in over a 8-hour duty day (hotel to hotel, not airport to airport). Normally it's just 5 to 7 hours and 2 or 3 legs. And with DAY being such a hated base there, I could get those schedules right out of IOE by going to that base (next to no reserve time at that base). But a terrible 2 leg commute for a few years until I could hold CLT. The commute is the ONLY reason I hesitate to go back there. The level of commute stress and lack of time home that commute would cause might make me miserable. I lived in base with them before and always just heard horror stories from the pilots that commuted. Moving from my beach house is not an option. I like the no stress commute of NJM and the folks there were great people and very personable compared to me just being a number at PSA.

I believe if I get to a respectable 135 on an 8/6 schedule, it might be a great job. I just have to be able to maintain a very strict diet and eating habit as it is the diet that changed my life and health. More specific. If I don't get to a quality steak house nightly for dinner to keep my net carbs below 20g a day, I am in trouble. 100 percent attainable at the scheduled airline due to the contract at PSA. I need this to be attainable at NJM and no way to know. So that's my biggest concern there. Food delivery to the FBO is a no go for me. I can't do that. My diet is too specific. My diet is my health.

So the unknown factor is the fear of the unknown. I am 60% towards taking njm position compared to PSA. I am would just hope I can maintain my diet to stay healthy.
 
TexasFlyer said:
You hit the nail on the head on this one with the image that training contract portrays. I also fear that sets me up to be overworked by maxing out the 135 rules consistently. That could be exhausting and actually dangerous given my history.

My AME made it clear that this is my one chance to get back to work and see that I can maintain my health, so I need to be very careful about overworking or jumping in over my head. And the FAA is watching as I am being monitored by a specific doctor.

The airline world of PSA is known to me and I know the regulations on that side. I am sure the duty day is quite leisurely compared to NJM. At PSA I would rarely be putting in over a 8-hour duty day (hotel to hotel, not airport to airport). Normally it's just 5 to 7 hours and 2 or 3 legs. And with DAY being such a hated base there, I could get those schedules right out of IOE by going to that base (next to no reserve time at that base). But a terrible 2 leg commute for a few years until I could hold CLT. The commute is the ONLY reason I hesitate to go back there. The level of commute stress and lack of time home that commute would cause might make me miserable. I lived in base with them before and always just heard horror stories from the pilots that commuted. Moving from my beach house is not an option. I like the no stress commute of NJM and the folks there were great people and very personable compared to me just being a number at PSA.

I believe if I get to a respectable 135 on an 8/6 schedule, it might be a great job. I just have to be able to maintain a very strict diet and eating habit as it is the diet that changed my life and health. More specific. If I don't get to a quality steak house nightly for dinner to keep my net carbs below 20g a day, I am in trouble. 100 percent attainable at the scheduled airline due to the contract at PSA. I need this to be attainable at NJM and no way to know. So that's my biggest concern there. Food delivery to the FBO is a no go for me. I can't do that. My diet is too specific. My diet is my health.

So the unknown factor is the fear of the unknown. I am 60% towards taking njm position compared to PSA. I am would just hope I can maintain my diet to stay healthy.
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I’d strongly suggest talking to the Director of Ops and/or the Chief Pilot and state clearly what does and does not work for you and why. They don’t want to put you in a situation that doesn’t work for you, anymore than you want that to happen. They want to make an investment that pays off for them, and misleading pilot candidates never works out for the company, and they know that too. Yeah, they’ll try to upsell the company of course, but they won’t purposefully mislead you into an unhealthy (for you) situation. Greg and Peter are both good guys and you can believe what they tell you - if you frankly discuss the details of what you need I’d bet they would tell you up front if they do, or don’t, think it would work. Caveat: they can’t tell the future, but they know the past.

Let me know if you want me to reach out to either of them.
 
TexasFlyer said:
This is my end goal. Which ever I pick now is my home until I retire. That's how I am looking at it and why it's so tough. I don't want to jump anywhere again after this if it can be avoided.

So it's either a 8/6 charter life end goal for 60k less a year. Or a 121 regional end goal with a god awful commute for 3 to 4 years from TPA to LGA or PHL or DFW. Then after that commute is easier to MIA or ATL or CLT but still a standy commute versus just that 8/6.

Trying to fathom that commute for the regionals. I heard commuting out of anywhere in Florida is awful and a problem. And my home time and sanity will be majorly impacted due to it. Relocation, not an option. Hence the hesitation to go the regional route. But then I have others staying an 8/6 charter schedule under 135 is pure hell due to 14 hour days. But I did narrow it down I believe to PSA since I worked there before and did enjoy it (but lived in base back then) vs NJM flying that little citation on an 8/6.
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Don't look at the charter gig as your forever gig in corporate aviation. My advice to you is to look at it as a path the an eventual Part 91 gig out of TPA. Good 91 gigs to exist. You just have to network a bit to find them. There is plenty of 91 corporate activity out of TPA.
 
SteveC said:
I’d strongly suggest talking to the Director of Ops and/or the Chief Pilot and state clearly what does and does not work for you and why. They don’t want to put you in a situation that doesn’t work for you, anymore than you want that to happen. They want to make an investment that pays off for them, and misleading pilot candidates never works out for the company, and they know that too. Yeah, they’ll try to upsell the company of course, but they won’t purposefully mislead you into an unhealthy (for you) situation. Greg and Peter are both good guys and you can believe what they tell you - if you frankly discuss the details of what you need I’d bet they would tell you up front if they do, or don’t, think it would work. Caveat: they can’t tell the future, but they know the past.

Let me know if you want me to reach out to either of them.
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Jeff and Peter have an email from me. Basically 5 questions my doctor asked me that I did not know the answer to. And it's the doctor the FAA assigned me to see so I guess those answers will give me (and the doctor) all the answers they need to help me make sure this is the right path versus the "scheduled" 121 world. I need the answers by Monday. That's when the doctor takes his final report from me on my "flying activity and plans" which is good for 6 months.
 
Since it sounds like you don’t have much concern over what you fly, but rather how you fly and maintaining good health, here’s my two cents: You’ll have more control over diet and exercise in the 135 world than 121. I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out. The reason I say that is you’ll have influence on the hotel choices more than the contracted vendors for whichever 121 you’d be with. In my experience, most 135s will say “Looks like you’ll be in ABC tonight… do you want the Hilton, Marriott, Wyndham option … ?” Then you can do a quick search to find proper nutrition nearby, whether it is Whole Foods, Wegmans, Publix, Ralph’s or whatever grocery store chain is in the region. Far better choices than the Holiday Inn Express abeam the runway with a Waffle House, In-N-Out, or McDonald’s in the parking lot. Plus you’ll have a crew car, or expense ground transportation (Lyft, Uber or cabs). The same strategy can help you find lodging near preferred gyms.

Sure, 135 presents some anxiety due to the randomness of where you’ll be each day, but it isn’t as bad as some make it out to be. Sure you might end up in Manhattan, KS or Manhattan, NY by way of Teterboro, but wherever you end up - it is the company’s problem to get you home. You’ll never have to stress out about commuting again.
 
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CFI A&P said:
Since it sounds like you don’t have much concern over what you fly, but rather how you fly and maintaining good health, here’s my two cents: You’ll have more control over diet and exercise in the 135 world than 121. I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out. The reason I say that is you’ll have influence on the hotel choices more than the contracted vendors for whichever 121 you’d be with. In my experience, most 135s will say “Looks like you’ll be in ABC tonight… do you want the Hilton, Marriott, Wyndham option … ?” Then you can do a quick search to find proper nutrition nearby, whether it is Whole Foods, Wegmans, Publix, Ralph’s or whatever grocery store chain is in the region. Far better choices than the Holiday Inn Express abeam the runway with a Waffle House, In-N-Out, or McDonald’s in the parking lot. Plus you’ll have a crew car, or expense ground transportation (Lyft, Uber or cabs). The same strategy can help you find lodging near preferred gyms.

Sure, 135 presents some anxiety due to the randomness of where you’ll be each day, but it isn’t as bad as some make it out to be. Sure you might end up in Manhattan, KS or Manhattan, NY by way of Teterboro, but wherever you end up - it is the company’s problem to get you home. You’ll never have to stress out about commuting again.
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Yes. The type of schedule that will allow me to maintain my low carb diet and allows for proper rest. That combination keeps me able to maintain my medical certification and keeps my extremely healthy.

So great post. Thank you. I have those questions into the Chief Pilot and Director of Ops so I can specifically explain to my doctor that maintaining my diet is just as possible with NJM as it is at PSA or Endeavor or Envoy. It's just daily planning (with possibly even more control) versus monthly planning.

I'm just in a position where the doctors advice is basically the FAA's guidance. And while my new 1st class was issued without knowing all the answers to the questions asked of me. I was told to have the answers on Monday for my AME to submit. I have the easiest special issuance out there. It just comes with an interrogation with each medical renewal from a doctor asking questions about my "current flying and future flying plans and how that relates to my diet and sleep management.". And I take it seriously since I never want to lose my medical again. It was an excessive and long process to get back!

Thanks for the reply. Very helpful.
 
I’m not sure if your regional had PBS when you were there, or the reserve rules, but from my regional experience they like to use you up month after month as a junior reserve in seat, and the optimizer type tools can churn and churn in the name of “ productivity “ making one hell of a not fun situation for line holders at times.

As far as 135, and fractionals I worked an 8 and 6 schedule for a couple of years and loved it, but you do tend to be pretty busy on those 8 days with FAA minimum 10 hours rest, or not much over between duty periods with flying on day 1 after getting to your airplane and on day 8 before deadheading your way home ( usually more deadhead legs on the way home than on the way to work because they’ve had their work out of you for the week and are trying to save some money ). The average 135 operator that keeps you on the road between days off while they scour the brokerage boards for flying tend to be the biggest scumbags in a highly littered segment of scumbags. There are a decent few 135 companies out there, don’t get me wrong, but they are usually operators in larger markets that have the luxury of making most of their money off of their established clientele and work a little harder at incentivizing their flight crews to stick around.

Good luck, and welcome back to flying!
 
Beep said:
I’m not sure if your regional had PBS when you were there, or the reserve rules, but from my regional experience they like to use you up month after month as a junior reserve in seat, and the optimizer type tools can churn and churn in the name of “ productivity “ making one hell of a not fun situation for line holders at times.

As far as 135, and fractionals I worked an 8 and 6 schedule for a couple of years and loved it, but you do tend to be pretty busy on those 8 days with FAA minimum 10 hours rest, or not much over between duty periods with flying on day 1 after getting to your airplane and on day 8 before deadheading your way home ( usually more deadhead legs on the way home than on the way to work because they’ve had their work out of you for the week and are trying to save some money ). The average 135 operator that keeps you on the road between days off while they scour the brokerage boards for flying tend to be the biggest scumbags in a highly littered segment of scumbags. There are a decent few 135 companies out there, don’t get me wrong, but they are usually operators in larger markets that have the luxury of making most of their money off of their established clientele and work a little harder at incentivizing their flight crews to stick around.

Good luck, and welcome back to flying!
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Thanks. I had PBS at Mesa and loved it. At PSA it was like bids with an adjustment period and that worked for me as well. PSA now uses PBS as of this month. The first couple years at a regional are tough, but long term life gets really good. It's a known option to me if I go back to where I come from. So no fear factor there.

That said. Today I decided to go with Norhern Jet Management (NJM). I spoke to a few current pilots (using my recruiting resources to source the conversation) and also management answers the questions my AME needed per my special issuance. NJM seems like a really good 135 operator with a good pilot group. The training contract sucks, but nothing is perfect. So that is what it is. I'm just grateful to have the opportunity.

I will greatly miss the 121 world. I loved it there. But my health and quality of life and maintaining my island lifestyle in Florida is most important to me. NJM seems to be the best place to accomplish that.


Thanks everyone for your inputs!
 
TexasFlyer said:
Thanks. I had PBS at Mesa and loved it. At PSA it was like bids with an adjustment period and that worked for me as well. PSA now uses PBS as of this month. The first couple years at a regional are tough, but long term life gets really good. It's a known option to me if I go back to where I come from. So no fear factor there.

That said. Today I decided to go with Norhern Jet Management (NJM). I spoke to a few current pilots (using my recruiting resources to source the conversation) and also management answers the questions my AME needed per my special issuance. NJM seems like a really good 135 operator with a good pilot group. The training contract sucks, but nothing is perfect. So that is what it is. I'm just grateful to have the opportunity.

I will greatly miss the 121 world. I loved it there. But my health and quality of life and maintaining my island lifestyle in Florida is most important to me. NJM seems to be the best place to accomplish that.


Thanks everyone for your inputs!
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great! hoping you stay healthy and enjoy your time there. excited to hear about your experiences getting back in the saddle
 
SteveC said:
I will be uber curious to see how it all works out for you!

Also curious what some of the current line pilots are saying about their experience. I invested a lot of time and effort into that place, and I really hope it’s continuing down a good path.
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Low pay was the only real negative comment. But it was not a complaint as they all really enjoy their job. As for the CJ operation. One could speak much about it as it's so new. But based on the company culture, I am hopeful that great culture expands into the CJ3 fleet. The future is never known. But you can many times correlate the past into the future. So I believe the future for the CJ3 pilot group is good.
 
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