Started ATP 2 Days Ago

[JOEFRIDAY2]

This is an informative thread and I want to thank the OP for starting it. I do notice that he has not come back in a few months. He was supposed to take his instrument check ride in July. Perhaps it didn't go well? Perhaps he is just busy.

However, I do want to point something out. He paid ATP (through a loan) about $75,000 in advance. That is a very risky thing to do. What if you are not able to finish your training for one reason or another? If you fail a check ride they are going to want more money. If you don't pay it then they will kick you out. ATP has your money and you are subject to some heavy cancellation fees if you drop out or are kicked out of the program. You need to read that ATP contract. It's all in there.

ATP's contract allows them to kick you out if your fail two check rides. Their contract also calls for a penalty of thousands of dollars. What this means is that you will still owe the bank (or Sallie Mae) even if you don't get your ratings. If you require more hours for training than your ATP package allows, then you are going to be charged more. It could be thousands of dollars more. If you fail a check ride you will have to get out your credit card again.

In the US, over 85% of the pilots that begin their flight training do not even get their private pilot's license. This is not as easy as everyone seems to think it is.

For the reasons listed here, I (as well as most all commercial pilots) can not recommend any flight school that requires you to pay for an entire aviation training program up front. You need to pay as you go. If you go to one of the legitimate 4 year universities, they all are pay as you go. You pay one semester at a time. If you don't go the next semester then you don't pay. If you go to a local flight school (near where you live) you will pay by the lesson. You do not pay for the entire program up front and you should not pay for the entire program up front.

 

[BCTAv8r]

This is an informative thread and I want to thank the OP for starting it. I do notice that he has not come back in a few months. He was supposed to take his instrument check ride in July. Perhaps it didn't go well? Perhaps he is just busy.

However, I do want to point something out. He paid ATP (through a loan) about $75,000 in advance. That is a very risky thing to do. What if you are not able to finish your training for one reason or another? If you fail a check ride they are going to want more money. If you don't pay it then they will kick you out. ATP has your money and you are subject to some heavy cancellation fees if you drop out or are kicked out of the program. You need to read that ATP contract. It's all in there.

ATP's contract allows them to kick you out if your fail two check rides. Their contract also calls for a penalty of thousands of dollars. What this means is that you will still owe the bank (or Sallie Mae) even if you don't get your ratings. If you require more hours for training than your ATP package allows, then you are going to be charged more. It could be thousands of dollars more. If you fail a check ride you will have to get out your credit card again.

In the US, over 85% of the pilots that begin their flight training do not even get their private pilot's license. This is not as easy as everyone seems to think it is.

For the reasons listed here, I (as well as most all commercial pilots) can not recommend any flight school that requires you to pay for an entire aviation training program up front. You need to pay as you go. If you go to one of the legitimate 4 year universities, they all are pay as you go. You pay one semester at a time. If you don't go the next semester then you don't pay. If you go to a local flight school (near where you live) you will pay by the lesson. You do not pay for the entire program up front and you should not pay for the entire program up front.

I agree that one should read the contract prior to committing, but you don't actually pay for the entire program at ATP up front. They break down the cost of the program into about 4 payments and each amount is due at a certain milestone in the program.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

I agree that one should read the contract prior to committing, but you don't actually pay for the entire program at ATP up front. They break down the cost of the program into about 4 payments and each amount is due at a certain milestone in the program.

Can you post when the payments are due at ATP?

 

[ShyFlyer]

Can you post when the payments are due at ATP?

The four payments start with the first being due on your scheduled start date. There after, it's about once a month. The payment schedule is the same whether you finance or pay out of pocket.

The below information comes from the Flight Training and Refund Policy (Rev. 01/14/16) that's part of the Check-In paperwork each student goes through on thier first day.

With respect to flight times:

Due to varying flight check times and other considerations, your flight time may vary from those indicated on the Program Outline for each single-engine and multiengine flight. ATP will neither charge nor refund you for these variances.

With respect to refunds:

Within 15 days of program termination, ATP will issue a refund to you, or your lender if a loan was used. Any refund due to you will be calculated by refunding the difference between your total payments and total charges incurred.

The rates used for extra training or for calculating refunds is listed here:
https://atpflightschool.com/international/extra-training-rates.html

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Here is the schedule someone just sent me:

Payment to Reserve Class Date
Non-refundable

$995
Start Date $18,250
8 Weeks After Start Date $18,250
12 Weeks After Start Date $18,250
16 Weeks After Start Date $18,250
Total Fixed Cost
Plus $140 for third party iPad apps and approximately $4,800 for designated pilot examiner fees. $73,995

So here is the problem with this.

$37,495 is paid prior to a student completing his private.
$73,995 is paid prior to a student completing his instrument.

In effect the school is getting tens of thousands of dollars AHEAD of the student. When a flight school gets more than $2500 AHEAD of a student, red flags should be going up.

Not for nothing, but a student can pretty much go to a local Flight School and get their private for about $20,000 +- and pay by the lesson as they go. There will not be thousands or tens of thousands of dollars up front. There will not be lodging expenses or additional living expenses. Also if they find out they can't do this (85% drop out), then they can stop at anytime without any financial penalty.

 

[ShyFlyer]

That schedule looks like it's for someone who is doing the full zero to hero track. I'm starting with a PPL, so my payment schedule may be different.

When I got my PPL at a local FBO, I borrowed the money from Sallie Mae and the whole chuck went to the FBO. Any fees incurred were deducted from my account and I always received (and kept) a detailed receipt. Had I stopped flying before the money on my account was used, I could request from them a refund. They had done it for students in the past.

Same with ATP. Sure, you pay quite a bit upfront. They do have a refund policy that's spelled out multiple places. In my case, if I choose to leave before completing the program, I (Sallie Mae specifically) will be refunded the funds that haven't been used. I'm satisfied with thier refund policy.

I've seen some shady business deals and this isn't one of them. ATP probably isn't the "gold standard" in civilian flight training, but I've spent quite a lot of time and effort evaluating them and others. It works for me. I didn't want to start flight training unless I could arrange the financing for all of it prior to starting, so the "pay as you go" method wasn't going to work for me. That's not to say that "pay as you go" isn't a better method, nor is "all of it upfront" a worse method. It's all based on individual circumstances.

Come to think of it, when I went to college, I had to pay for the entire semester up front. There were certainly no refunds if I chose to drop out after the first couple of weeks.

 

[BrianNC]

Not for nothing, but a student can pretty much go to a local Flight School and get their private for about $20,000 +- and pay by the lesson as they go.

A private cost $20k now?!!!. Man, I must be totally out of touch.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

A private cost $20k now?!!!. Man, I must be totally out of touch.

Well when you compare apples to apples (newer glass cockpit planes) etc, you are looking at somewhere close to $20,000. And I didn't want to compare ATP's glass cockpit training with newer aircraft to other older types of aircraft that just aren't the same.

If you want to train in a 35 year old 152 then you can do it for less than half that amount. An old is 172 about half that amount. A glass cockpit 172 will be closer to the $20,000.

But that was not my point. My point was that ATP had collected $37,495 upfront prior to the student even receiving his Private. While it is not the total amount for the entire course, it is almost $17,000 over the cost of the glass cockpit private.

And we all know what can happen when they get into instrument, and the commercial sections if they need additional hours. (which is very common)

I do understand that folks want to have their funds lined up prior to starting flight training. But I still subscribe to the believe that you should not let any flight school get more than $2500 ahead of a student.

I worked on these student loans with Wells Fargo a while back when they were trying to figure if they were going to stay in this space. At that time, they had cut everyone off and were not doing them.

While I can't go into everything that I did, I will tell you the reason that ATP is not getting all of the money upfront at one time is not because they volunteered to do that. That is a bank requirement. After the initial payment, my suggestion was that the flight schools not receive any more money until the check ride was passed. That is not what is going on at ATP right now. They are simply working by time and not ratings. If you don't fly, ATP is still getting a huge chuck of he money about every four weeks. So you could sign up, break an arm in an accident and not be able to fly for 4 months and by the time you get back ATP would have collected all of the money. Nothing stops them from getting the money unless you withdraw. In that case you will have to pay a penalty which will cost you thousands of dollars.

There is another pilot finance outfit out of Michigan that does pilot financing. https://www.pilotfinance.com

The student borrows the money by the rating. When that rating is reached then he can borrow for the next rating once they have paid down 50% of what they have already borrowed. They just don't let the student get too deep. This allows a student to get started on their private quickly at a local FBO, take up to 5 flight lessons a week and get their private for the lowest price possible. Once they do that and pay down 50% of the amount borrowed, they can start on their instrument. It's not for everyone, but it is a realistic way to get started without having to deal with an $1100 a month student loan payment for 20 years. Your private will always be cheaper at a local FBO. You don't have travel and lodging expenses. And when you get your FAA private license it looks identical to any other private (instrument, commercial, multi, type rating) license no matter where they trained. All of the licenses are identical.

I'm not saying ATP is a bad outfit. I'm not saying their training is bad or good. I'm just saying there are other options for most people that keep the advantage on their side. A student is taking a huge risk with any pre-paid career training program. Ask any commercial pilot.

Also, getting some cross country hours in AFTER you get your private and BEFORE you start your instrument is a wise thing to do. It gives you experience and these will be the cheapest hours you will ever get. Those hours also count towards your required hours in your log book. You won't have to do them later! (flying endless expensive boring time building trips by yourself on routes to no where for no reason other than to put the time in your logbook)

In addition, you can take your friends up, go on a trip somewhere and split the costs between you. This reduces your personal cost of flying (by up to 75%) and allows your friends to have exposure to VFR flying. I did many trips like this after I first got my private. We had a lot of fun. And I didn't have to spend as much to log the hours.

 

[DE727UPS]

Nothing wrong with getting your training in 35 year old 152. I have more respect for someone who can handle old skool than someone who started with a G1000 as their min technology. Ever see what a 757 has on standby power? It's 30 minutes of attitude indicator, airspeed, altimeter, one comm, one nav, one ILS. No map and no glass.

 

[Brandon K.]

As a current student at ATP there's a good amount on here that doesn't sound right. I have been a student since mid August and started from zero hours and they have yet to take more than 20gs out. My privates costed around 15gs and that's 80 hours with glass cockpit. ATP's contract may say they have the right to kick someone out after failing 2 checkrides but they don't. I've seen them bend over backwards and do absolutely everything they can before dismissing a student. Most of the reasons a student doesn't make it through the school is they won't study like they should. It is a 90% self study program which is important to note.
Another impressive thing (which is what originally brought me to the school) is that you can start with zero time and 6 months later have your cfi CFII and MEI with either 40 or 100 hours multi time depending on which program you choose. It was mentioned earlier that 85% of beginner pilots don't even make it to their private license. I have only seen on person leave this program by choice and he ended up going to another one of their locations in another state a month later, he had no financial penalties and he said they were happy he returned. One last point, I'd say 60% of the students at ATP have parents that are pilots. If this school wasn't legit in the least bit they would not be sending their children there, guaranteed.

 

[ShyFlyer]

ATP's contract may say they have the right to kick someone out after failing 2 checkrides but they don't.

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I did see somewhere they will dis enroll someone who isn't progressing. It said nothing about checkrides specifically, but it did mention something about if the student's projected completion date was three months or more beyond what was originally projected at the start of training.

Also, getting some cross country hours in AFTER you get your private and BEFORE you start your instrument is a wise thing to do.

I'm not sure how the 100ME track is set up, but for the 40ME track, I'm scheduled for a minimum of 20hrs XC time prior to getting into the meat and potatoes of Instrument training. There will be instrument training on these flights (at least 14hrs hood time), but it's primarily to build PIC and XC time.

In addition, you can take your friends up, go on a trip somewhere and split the costs between you.

I wish I could have done that. None of my local friends cared enough about flying to want to go up.

 

[flybywp]

Well when you compare apples to apples (newer glass cockpit planes) etc, you are looking at somewhere close to $20,000. And I didn't want to compare ATP's glass cockpit training with newer aircraft to other older types of aircraft that just aren't the same.

If you want to train in a 35 year old 152 then you can do it for less than half that amount. An old is 172 about half that amount. A glass cockpit 172 will be closer to the $20,000.

But that was not my point. My point was that ATP had collected $37,495 upfront prior to the student even receiving his Private. While it is not the total amount for the entire course, it is almost $17,000 over the cost of the glass cockpit private.

And we all know what can happen when they get into instrument, and the commercial sections if they need additional hours. (which is very common)

I do understand that folks want to have their funds lined up prior to starting flight training. But I still subscribe to the believe that you should not let any flight school get more than $2500 ahead of a student.

I worked on these student loans with Wells Fargo a while back when they were trying to figure if they were going to stay in this space. At that time, they had cut everyone off and were not doing them.

While I can't go into everything that I did, I will tell you the reason that ATP is not getting all of the money upfront at one time is not because they volunteered to do that. That is a bank requirement. After the initial payment, my suggestion was that the flight schools not receive any more money until the check ride was passed. That is not what is going on at ATP right now. They are simply working by time and not ratings. If you don't fly, ATP is still getting a huge chuck of he money about every four weeks. So you could sign up, break an arm in an accident and not be able to fly for 4 months and by the time you get back ATP would have collected all of the money. Nothing stops them from getting the money unless you withdraw. In that case you will have to pay a penalty which will cost you thousands of dollars.

There is another pilot finance outfit out of Michigan that does pilot financing. https://www.pilotfinance.com

The student borrows the money by the rating. When that rating is reached then he can borrow for the next rating once they have paid down 50% of what they have already borrowed. They just don't let the student get too deep. This allows a student to get started on their private quickly at a local FBO, take up to 5 flight lessons a week and get their private for the lowest price possible. Once they do that and pay down 50% of the amount borrowed, they can start on their instrument. It's not for everyone, but it is a realistic way to get started without having to deal with an $1100 a month student loan payment for 20 years. Your private will always be cheaper at a local FBO. You don't have travel and lodging expenses. And when you get your FAA private license it looks identical to any other private (instrument, commercial, multi, type rating) license no matter where they trained. All of the licenses are identical.

I'm not saying ATP is a bad outfit. I'm not saying their training is bad or good. I'm just saying there are other options for most people that keep the advantage on their side. A student is taking a huge risk with any pre-paid career training program. Ask any commercial pilot.

Also, getting some cross country hours in AFTER you get your private and BEFORE you start your instrument is a wise thing to do. It gives you experience and these will be the cheapest hours you will ever get. Those hours also count towards your required hours in your log book. You won't have to do them later! (flying endless expensive boring time building trips by yourself on routes to no where for no reason other than to put the time in your logbook)

In addition, you can take your friends up, go on a trip somewhere and split the costs between you. This reduces your personal cost of flying (by up to 75%) and allows your friends to have exposure to VFR flying. I did many trips like this after I first got my private. We had a lot of fun. And I didn't have to spend as much to log the hours.

I see where you're coming from, and you have a few valid concerns, but I think you have a general misunderstanding of how ATP conducts business. Or maybe you know an old ATP from years ago that I don't.

As far as just handing out 70k and being uncomfortable with the risk involved in doing so, I get that. However, this is not just any flight school. ATP has been around for a long, LONG time. Sure some have left pissed off and some have horror stories, but what large company providing a service doesn't? If ATP was ripping people off left and right, kicking people out, over charging them, executing sneaky small fine print penalties, etc do you really think they would have grown to be the company they are today? Would professional pilots still be sending their sons and daughters to ATP? Surely you know reputation and word of mouth is key, especially in aviation.

The "pay as you go" model you are advocating is great, but it would not work for ATP students. First, many (and I mean nearly everyone) likes to know EXACTLY how much they are going to pay, pay it, and get it out of the way. That doesn't work for you? Go somewhere else. ATP makes it very clear it is an upfront cost. Second, a program as accelerated as this would simply not work if you paid per flight. Flights would be getting canceled and students' programs placed on hold as they fumble to get their checks/cash/loans applied on a daily/weekly basis.

ATP has a simple refund policy that is made clear on their website. No penalty. You can quit any time for any reason.

It is not in any way common for students to need "extra time" during instrument or commercial phases. Not at all.

Never heard of this 2 check rides and you're out rule. But we all know aviation is not for everyone. There are of course people who will not take it seriously or just won't have what it takes. On a rare occasion maybe accelerated flight training isn't for them. Do you really want someone rolling through the program with 6 busts, wind up instructing, and possibly at a regional one day? A line has to be drawn somewhere and dealt with on a case by case basis. But I've never heard of a rule like that or it being enforced. And if it was, it's possible it would be in the student's best interest.

You also mentioned students paying extra when they need retraining or fail a checkride. How would this be different at any other school? Of course you need to pay for extra flight time not included in the program. Make this a habit at a 141 university and you might be shown the door with absolutely nothing to show for it (and no refund).

By the way, when I was in college, I paid for an entire semester up front. If I dropped a class or "withdrew" I got absolutely no refund. If I failed a course, no refund. Don't see how this is much different.

I'm not an ATP fanatic by any means. I actually agree with some of what you said. You made some very valid points. I respect you may have had a very different experience than any of us. But I don't think ATP is out to take advantage of their students and the financial risk involved.

 

[BCTAv8r]

It is interesting to see so many here taking the time to defend ATP, myself included. I have nothing to gain by coming back here after graduating from the program and clearing up some of the misconceptions. I only do so because I actually thought it was a good program, and might also be a good choice for others who were in my situation. It is probably not the best way to go about getting your ratings, nor the cheapest, but the program was exactly what I was told it would be when I signed up for it. Everyone who was going through the program while I was there and put in the work did fine.

As for the cost, with it being a flat cost nationally, whether it's worth it or not depends on your location. I was in South FL, and earned my PPL at another school. ATP's cost wasn't all that different from the other schools I compared with. If you're in a cheaper area of the country though, I can see ATP not being worth it financially.

 

[Brandon K.]

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I did see somewhere they will dis enroll someone who isn't progressing. It said nothing about checkrides specifically, but it did mention something about if the student's projected completion date was three months or more beyond what was originally projected at the start of training.



I'm not sure how the 100ME track is set up, but for the 40ME track, I'm scheduled for a minimum of 20hrs XC time prior to getting into the meat and potatoes of Instrument training. There will be instrument training on these flights (at least 14hrs hood time), but it's primarily to build PIC and XC time.


I wish I could have done that. None of my local friends cared enough about flying to want to go up.

I just finished my 20 hour time build right before the start of the instrument. I tell you the holds killed me the first 2 days in the sim. Starting DME arcs tomorrow. I too am in the 40hr. The difference between the 40 and 100 hour I believe is the 100 hour guys are in the Seminole by now where the 40 hour guys stay in the archers.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I just finished my 20 hour time build right before the start of the instrument. I tell you the holds killed me the first 2 days in the sim. Starting DME arcs tomorrow. I too am in the 40hr. The difference between the 40 and 100 hour I believe is the 100 hour guys are in the Seminole by now where the 40 hour guys stay in the archers.

Doing my IFR part 61. What's so hard about holds and DME Arcs in your opinion?

 

[BCTAv8r]

Doing my IFR part 61. What's so hard about holds and DME Arcs in your opinion?

Not to take away from those who have difficulty with DME arcs and holds, since we all struggle with different aspects of training. But the worst thing about DME arcs and holds was the preconception I had prior to learning them. Everyone also repeats how those two techniques are so hard, that your start to believe it. When you actually do them though, there's nothing to it.

For holds, the thumb method was really helpful when learning the concept.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Not to take away from those who have difficulty with DME arcs and holds, since we all struggle with different aspects of training. But the worst thing about DME arcs and holds was the preconception I had prior to learning them. Everyone also repeats how those two techniques are so hard, that your start to believe it. When you actually do them though, there's nothing to it.

For holds, the thumb method was really helpful when learning the concept.

Thx. I actually haven't done either of them yet. But have studied them, so I know them on paper only. But my instructor and I are starting approaches, so they're both definitely on the horizon.

 

[BrianNC]

Not to take away from those who have difficulty with DME arcs and holds...

When I did my instrument training I found DME arcs surprisingly easy. Figuring out hold entries wasn't though.

 

[BrianNC]

For holds, the thumb method was really helpful when learning the concept.

Good video. All though you don't really need the thumb.

 

[BCTAv8r]

Yea

Good video. All though you don't really need the thumb.

Yea, some people learn it with a pencil. Like you said though, after you learn to visualize it, you can just glance at the instrument and know which way to enter.