Speed Restrictions on STARS with no "Descend Via" clearance

[ozziecat35]

Are published speeds on a STAR mandatory in the absence of a "descend Via" clearance, but merely following your filed flight plan? Case in point: On the GIBBZ3 Arrival into IAD, via the MGW transition, say I'm at FL240 in cruise doing 310 kts, and for whatever reason, Washington Center needs to keep me high, or will have a descent further down the road, regardless, they haven't said a thing and there has been no explicit descend via or expect clearance. Am I expected to slow to 280kts over JIMVE, or maintain my current speed?

 

[Stone Cold]

Are you cleared on the STAR? If you've been cleared on the STAR, then any mandatory speed restrictions apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, then no speed restrictions apply. If it's just in your flight plan, I'd query ATC just so everybody's on the same page.

This was actually just discussed recently on the Landline page of the book of faces.

 

[ozziecat35]

Are you cleared on the STAR? If you've been cleared on the STAR, then any mandatory speed restrictions apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, then no speed restrictions apply. If it's just in your flight plan, I'd query ATC just so everybody's on the same page.

This was actually just discussed recently on the Landline page of the book of faces.

Lol, yeah that was me. Just getting the controllers in on the convo. In this case, not cleared for it, just on it via the flight plan. We didn’t query, but I will next time.

 

[Stone Cold]

Lol, yeah that was me. Just getting the controllers in on the convo. In this case, not cleared for it, just on it via the flight plan. We didn’t query, but I will next time.

Ah, I didn't notice that you were the OP there. Oops!

 

[Prino]

I wouldn’t expect you to slow if im just assigning altitudes and you’re not on a descend via clearance. I also wouldnt be surprised if you slowed or asked if you needed to comply with the speed

 

[Jordan93]

According to the AIM you have to comply with speed restrictions regardless of a descend via. This is also confirmed by several LCPs at my company. Not many people know this

FAA guidance

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs400/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

 

[Jordan93]

Are you cleared on the STAR? If you've been cleared on the STAR, then any mandatory speed restrictions apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, then no speed restrictions apply. If it's just in your flight plan, I'd query ATC just so everybody's on the same page.

This was actually just discussed recently on the Landline page of the book of faces.

I wouldn’t expect you to slow if im just assigning altitudes and you’re not on a descend via clearance. I also wouldnt be surprised if you slowed or asked if you needed to comply with the speed

That’s wrong. See my post. You are expected to comply with speeds on the STAR even in absence of a descend via. Like I said, surprisingly a lot of people don’t know this. I just found out a few months ago when an FO told me.

 

[Stone Cold]

That’s wrong. See my post. You are expected to comply with speeds on the STAR even in absence of a descend via. Like I said, surprisingly a lot of people don’t know this. I just found out a few months ago when an FO told me.

Why'd you quote me? I put the same thing you did. This has been this way for a very, very long time.

 

[derg]

As far as I know, I comply with the speeds regardless of the ”descend via” clearance. Or a simple “Hey, do you want the speeds” and the answer is usually “yes”.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Are published speeds on a STAR mandatory in the absence of a "descend Via" clearance, but merely following your filed flight plan? Case in point: On the GIBBZ3 Arrival into IAD, via the MGW transition, say I'm at FL240 in cruise doing 310 kts, and for whatever reason, Washington Center needs to keep me high, or will have a descent further down the road, regardless, they haven't said a thing and there has been no explicit descend via or expect clearance. Am I expected to slow to 280kts over JIMVE, or maintain my current speed?

"Descend Via" as denoted by the word "descend" applies only to altitudes. On an arrival, mandatory speeds are mandatory.

 

[ozziecat35]

According to the AIM you have to comply with speed restrictions regardless of a descend via. This is also confirmed by several LCPs at my company. Not many people know this

FAA guidance

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs400/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

Good enough for me!

 

[journeybird]

According to the AIM you have to comply with speed restrictions regardless of a descend via. This is also confirmed by several LCPs at my company. Not many people know this

FAA guidance

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs400/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

Good enough for me!

"...but the AIM is not regulatory!!" :stir:

 

[Jordan93]

Are you cleared on the STAR? If you've been cleared on the STAR, then any mandatory speed restrictions apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, then no speed restrictions apply. If it's just in your flight plan, I'd query ATC just so everybody's on the same page.

This was actually just discussed recently on the Landline page of the book of faces.

Maybe I misinterpreted this, but it sounds like you could be on the STAR without a descend via and you wouldn’t have to comply with the speed restrictions which is not true.

 

[Stone Cold]

Maybe I misinterpreted this, but it sounds like you could be on the STAR without a descend via and you wouldn’t have to comply with the speed restrictions which is not true.

Yeah, I couldn't written that better. I meant if you weren't cleared on the STAR, then speed restrictions don't apply.

 

[Stone Cold]

Maybe I misinterpreted this, but it sounds like you could be on the STAR without a descend via and you wouldn’t have to comply with the speed restrictions which is not true.

Yeah, I couldn't written that better. I meant if you weren't cleared on the STAR, then speed restrictions don't apply.

Actually, I take that back. If you're clearance is the STAR, then mandatory speeds apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, even if you're cleared for it (think vectors) then you're not held to those speeds, since you're not technically on the STAR while being vectored. If you are not cleared on the STAR, then of course speeds don't apply.

 

[Jordan93]

Actually, I take that back. If you're clearance is the STAR, then mandatory speeds apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, even if you're cleared for it (think vectors) then you're not held to those speeds, since you're not technically on the STAR while being vectored. If you are not cleared on the STAR, then of course speeds don't apply.

Yep. If you get cleared to XXX via ABC.DEFGH4 arrival and you fly the arrival but don’t get a descend via, absence of any other clearance, you must still comply with the speeds on DEFGH4 arrival

 

[MikeD]

"...but the AIM is not regulatory!!" :stir:

Its both, depending on where you look in the forward sections. The AIM itself, as a freestanding publication, is not a regulatory document. However the AIM contains and restates procedures from a number of different regulatory sources such as 14 CFR 91, 7110.65, etc, meaning that there is regulatory content contained in the sections having to do with operations in the NAS.

So while it says this, from the FAA:

"This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities required by other publications. "

And right before that, it's stated:

"This manual is designed to provide the aviation community with basic flight information and ATC procedures for use in the National Airspace System (NAS) of the United States. An international version called the Aeronautical Information Publication contains parallel information, as well as specific information on the international airports for use by the international community.

This manual contains the fundamentals required in order to fly in the United States NAS."

 

[MikeD]

Actually, I take that back. If you're clearance is the STAR, then mandatory speeds apply. If you're not actually on the STAR, even if you're cleared for it (think vectors) then you're not held to those speeds, since you're not technically on the STAR while being vectored. If you are not cleared on the STAR, then of course speeds don't apply.

Yes. Basic clearance, route and speeds. Descend via, published altitudes thrown in with those too.

 

[z987k]

Yep. If you get cleared to XXX via ABC.DEFGH4 arrival and you fly the arrival but don’t get a descend via, absence of any other clearance, you must still comply with the speeds on DEFGH4 arrival

I could be wrong here, but I've always assumed that if you get direct a random fix on the arrival(without a descend via or a direct XXX via), that you're not on the arrival and nothing applies. Like say you're going to Denver, filed via the BOSSS2, over in eastern Kansas, get a clearance direct BOSSS. Neither the speed nor altitude restriction of that fix apply.

 

[MikeD]

I could be wrong here, but I've always assumed that if you get direct a random fix on the arrival(without a descend via or a direct XXX via), that you're not on the arrival and nothing applies. Like say you're going to Denver, filed via the BOSSS2, over in eastern Kansas, get a clearance direct BOSSS. Neither the speed nor altitude restriction of that fix apply.

correct. At that point it’s just a fix so far as you’re concerned. Because you haven’t been told to fly the BOSSS2 arrival (or even been told to descend via), that fix is just another fix in space like any other. It would become part of the arrival in terms of speed restrictions if ATC now linked it to the BOSSS2 by telling you to fly the, or descend via, the BOSSS2. Granted, I would be expecting some kind of clearance regarding the STAR, but until then it’s just a fix.