Special Authorization for MEL

[BobDDuck]

This wasn't me but...

You get to the plane and find that there is a red status (CASS/ECAM/ECIAS what ever) message saying R REV DEPLOYED which basically means that the plane thinks the reverser is open (which it's not and the engine isn't even running).

The right thrust reverser is MELd inop and there is a letter clipped to the mx logbook that is from the manufacturer, dated 6 years ago that says it is ok to fly the airplane under this MEL with that message up, even though the MEL is actually for not being able to get the reverser to open and in this case the system thinks it is open. It also says that the takeoff config ok message (a required checklist item) will not display. The MEL number in the letter does not match the MEL number currently used in the logbook but is close.

You call dispatch and they tell you it's fine to take the airplane ("well other captains have been taking it all day") and that they have a letter from the FSDO authorizing the plane to fly, which they refuse to fax to you.

Do you take the plane?

 

[RRPower]

No! We have gone through this dog and pony show at Awac and it got not only the pilots in trouble with the Feds but ATW as well. If they want to play that game, then the airplane stays. I do not trust anyone anymore and the days of even believing your own company are over. They want their money for the leg and couldn't care less about you so no absolutely not. You as PIC or FO for that matter have to be satisfied the aircraft is safe and LEGAL to fly...period.

 

[Roger, Roger]

A) how well do I know the TR system and B) how much do I trust dispatch at this airline (this should probably be A) to tell the truth and not bend it to avoid having to re work the schedule?

 

[BobDDuck]

You know the TR system pretty well as you are a good little pilot.

Dispatch has been known to stretch the truth but they swear up and down they have a letter in front of them this time but there is no fax where you are at or they'd sent it to you.

 

[Roger, Roger]

You know the TR system pretty well as you are a good little pilot.

Dispatch has been known to stretch the truth but they swear up and down they have a letter in front of them this time but there is no fax where you are at or they'd sent it to you.

What locks the TR system closed if it has been deactivated, as is the case here? What is the risk of a deactivated TR popping open in flight? How big of a deal is this "takeoff config ok" EICAS message, and are there procedures in place for taking off without it in instances where other MEL-able failures might prevent it from displaying?

Also, from re-reading your post, it sounds like per the manufacturers letter, this would be ok. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly, but it sounds like this plane has the RH TR MELd, and is displaying the R REV DEPLOYED EICAS message. The way I read your post, the manufacturers letter says it is OK to fly the airplane with the TR MELd and that message up. The beef I might have from a legality standpoint, not necessarily a safety one, is that that MEL number in the letter doesn't match the one under which the aircraft has been dispatched. I'm not sure I'd want to have a fed ask me "well this letter doesn't reference the MEL under which you are dispatched, what makes you think this is legal?". And if I'd be uncomfortable explaining that to a fed, I might have an issue taking the airplane. I'm not a 121 pilot though, so this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Bumblebee]

they have a letter in front of them this time but there is no fax where you are at or they'd sent it to you.

two words....smart phone!

 

[BobDDuck]

What locks the TR system closed if it has been deactivated, as is the case here?

Locking pin.

What is the risk of a deactivated TR popping open in flight?

I doubt it, but I guess it's possible. 3000psi of hydraulic pressure can do pretty impressive things. I wouldn't be too concerned about it though.

How big of a deal is this "takeoff config ok" EICAS message, and are there procedures in place for taking off without it in instances where other MEL-able failures might prevent it from displaying?

There are no procedures for not having a takeoff config ok status message. There are no MELs that impact it as such. This is my single biggest gripe with the whole thing.

Also, from re-reading your post, it sounds like per the manufacturers letter, this would be ok. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly, but it sounds like this plane has the RH TR MELd, and is displaying the R REV DEPLOYED EICAS message.

Correct.

The way I read your post, the manufacturers letter says it is OK to fly the airplane with the TR MELd and that message up. The beef I might have from a legality standpoint, not necessarily a safety one, is that that MEL number in the letter doesn't match the one under which the aircraft has been dispatched. I'm not sure I'd want to have a fed ask me "well this letter doesn't reference the MEL under which you are dispatched, what makes you think this is legal?". And if I'd be uncomfortable explaining that to a fed, I might have an issue taking the airplane. I'm not a 121 pilot though, so this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

They said (and I actually believe that this is true) that the MEL number listed on the letter is from the MMEL list that is kept by the manufacturer. Because our specific MEL list is slightly different (although, I don't know how) it has a slightly different number but the basic ATA codes are the same.

two words....smart phone!

True... but not really a concern.

 

[jtrain609]

No fax machine eh?

I'll go ahead and call BS on this one. How do they get the paperwork to the outstation when the primary system goes down? Cancel all the flights until they can get it back up? No, they fax it and are thus lying to you.

I'd get MX control and if necessary, a chief pilot involved if dispatch doesn't want to get you the fax.

Also, are you allowed to dispatch using the manufacture MEL? The FAA signed off on your MEL book for a reason, and if the company is asking you to do procedures that the FAA hasn't looked at for your specific air carrier, and wants you to do things that are, in fact, completely outside the bounds of the book, I wouldn't move the plane one inch. Hell, get the POI on the phone, I'm sure they'd love to hear about it.

 

[Rocketman99]

Sorry if this is response rambles, I'm pretty much in zombie mode right now... In any case, the whole deal sounds kinda shady. The MEL is for the TR not deploying but the situation you have is that the plane thinks it's already deployed? Those aren't quite the same things to me, although I may be misunderstanding the scenario. I'd definitely want to see the actual documentation or no dice. I don't trust "we have the paper right here." The paperwork sitting in the dispatch office doesn't help me when Joe Fed decides to come do a ramp check when I land. Also, telling me that x amount of CAs have taken the plane before me doesn't really factor into the decision making process either. CA groupthink doesn't make a wrong answer/situation right. One link in the chain and all that...

 

[Pilotforhire587]

NO NO NO NO NO! I would not fly that airplane under the MEL. Now if they had it deactivated and I watched the contract Maint. guy come out and put locking pins on it to deactivate it I would think about ferrying it to a base where it could be fixed but now way I would fly it full of people. If I ferried it we would be light for one so God forbid the thing did come open I would hopefully be flying A). fast enough it just rips the thing off... oops. Or B). low enough, and I am light, to have the powe on the good engine to limp to an airport and land the pig

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You know the TR system pretty well as you are a good little pilot.

Dispatch has been known to stretch the truth but they swear up and down they have a letter in front of them this time but there is no fax where you are at or they'd sent it to you.

PDF and e-mail; unless I have it in my hand, we're not going.

(I'd assume the deactivation process on this aircraft involves the closing of a hydraulic isolation valve and the installation of lock pins, but still...I need to see the letter.)

 

[Bandit_Driver]

This wasn't me but...

You get to the plane and find that there is a red status (CASS/ECAM/ECIAS what ever) message saying R REV DEPLOYED which basically means that the plane thinks the reverser is open (which it's not and the engine isn't even running).

The right thrust reverser is MELd inop and there is a letter clipped to the mx logbook that is from the manufacturer, dated 6 years ago that says it is ok to fly the airplane under this MEL with that message up, even though the MEL is actually for not being able to get the reverser to open and in this case the system thinks it is open. It also says that the takeoff config ok message (a required checklist item) will not display. The MEL number in the letter does not match the MEL number currently used in the logbook but is close.

You call dispatch and they tell you it's fine to take the airplane ("well other captains have been taking it all day") and that they have a letter from the FSDO authorizing the plane to fly, which they refuse to fax to you.

Do you take the plane?

We'll I have 0 time on that plane. But I still wouldn't take it unless I had the FSDO letter in my posession, an update letter from the MFR, and it noted in the Logbook that the TR's is properly deactived and pinned in the forward thrust postion. I talked to a POI tht is a good friend of mine about another issue and he state a lot can change in x years....

You used to be able to MEL the 3rd ADI in the E170 and now several years later you can't

 

[tiredcfi]

Again, I am another one that doesn't fly this plane, however, the answer is NO. If the MEL numbers don't match, a proper MX deferral has not taken place, and the CO declining to provide the paperwork that would "allow" you do do this in the first place, it might be a good time to ring the CP office.

 

[BobDDuck]

Actually my friend is doing a carpet dance in front of the CP tomorrow because of his refusal to fly this airplane.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

We'll I have 0 time on that plane. But I still wouldn't take it unless I had the FSDO letter in my posession, an update letter from the MFR, and it noted in the Logbook that the TR's is properly deactived and pinned in the forward thrust postion.

In other words, you wouldn't fly it unless the MEL had been complied with...

Again, I am another one that doesn't fly this plane, however, the answer is NO. If the MEL numbers don't match, a proper MX deferral has not taken place, and the CO declining to provide the paperwork that would "allow" you do do this in the first place, it might be a good time to ring the CP office.

:yeahthat: !!!

Actually my friend is doing a carpet dance in front of the CP tomorrow because of his refusal to fly this airplane.

That's unfortunate. Because it sounds like your friend did the safe thing.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Actually my friend is doing a carpet dance in front of the CP tomorrow because of his refusal to fly this airplane.

sounds like you got a mgmt suck up for CP. I'd tell your friend not to show up with out the union rep...

 

[Pilotforhire587]

agreed

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Let us know how the dance goes....

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Let us know how the dance goes....

How did your buddy end up doing in the meeting

 

[FXMXC]

No fax machine eh?

I'll go ahead and call BS on this one. How do they get the paperwork to the outstation when the primary system goes down? Cancel all the flights until they can get it back up? No, they fax it and are thus lying to you.

I'd get MX control and if necessary, a chief pilot involved if dispatch doesn't want to get you the fax.

Also, are you allowed to dispatch using the manufacture MEL? The FAA signed off on your MEL book for a reason, and if the company is asking you to do procedures that the FAA hasn't looked at for your specific air carrier, and wants you to do things that are, in fact, completely outside the bounds of the book, I wouldn't move the plane one inch. Hell, get the POI on the phone, I'm sure they'd love to hear about it.

Well you would use YOUR MEL book. The manufacturer MMEL master MEL list a company can deviate from the manufacturer but it has to be MORE restrictive then the master MEL not less. Also in virtually all T/R MEL's it has you physically lock out the reverser so it cannot deploy and in some cases the reverser handle on the thrust lever is wired down as well.