Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no vfr

Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

drunkenbeagle said:
Well, I guess unless they flew up into the clouds, noted the altimeter, and descended, there isn't any way to be certain, is there?

But the Fed in the jumpseater in this case was an idiot. For had he ever read AIM 5-4-22(a), he would know that:
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I don't know, but don't most airline OpSpecs state that for a visual the operator must adhere to the 91.155 cloud clearance requirements?

I know that the 135 operator I fly for has to maintain the seperation.
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

This is according to our Ops Specs:

b. Terminal arrival IFR - Visual approach or a Charted Visual Flight Procedure (CVFP).
The flightcrew may accept a visual approach or a CVFP provided all the following conditions exist.
The flightcrew may not accept a visual approach or a CVFP unless the limitations and provisions of
subparagraph f. of this operations specification are met.
(1) The flight is operated and remains in Class B, C, or D airspace, within 35 miles of the
destination airport in Class E airspace, or the airspace beneath the designated transition area.
(2) The flight is under the control of an Air Traffic Control (ATC) facility.
(3) The flightcrew must maintain the basic cloud clearance as specified in Section 91.155.

So in this manner, the Fed was correct...assuming he could actually prove that the aircraft was less than 500ft below the clouds.
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

Repoing up from FLL-PBI, we got a traffic alert on a "VFR" target. Lo and behold, some aerobatic job (extra, maybe?) pops out of the broken layer half a mile off, banking left and right, etc. It took all of my "don't narc" willpower not to ask them if someone from the friendly FSDO wanted to have a little BFR with Captain Fun.
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

Boris Badenov said:
Repoing up from FLL-PBI, we got a traffic alert on a "VFR" target. Lo and behold, some aerobatic job (extra, maybe?) pops out of the broken layer half a mile off, banking left and right, etc. It took all of my "don't narc" willpower not to ask them if someone from the friendly FSDO wanted to have a little BFR with Captain Fun.
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1/2 mile? Guns or missiles?
 
SurferLucas said:
This is according to our Ops Specs:

b. Terminal arrival IFR - Visual approach or a Charted Visual Flight Procedure (CVFP).
The flightcrew may accept a visual approach or a CVFP provided all the following conditions exist.
The flightcrew may not accept a visual approach or a CVFP unless the limitations and provisions of
subparagraph f. of this operations specification are met.
(1) The flight is operated and remains in Class B, C, or D airspace, within 35 miles of the
destination airport in Class E airspace, or the airspace beneath the designated transition area.
(2) The flight is under the control of an Air Traffic Control (ATC) facility.
(3) The flightcrew must maintain the basic cloud clearance as specified in Section 91.155.

So in this manner, the Fed was correct...assuming he could actually prove that the aircraft was less than 500ft below the clouds.
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Not knowing all the facts, none of us can draw a conclusion (without seeing out the window and knowing the op specs).

But for purposes of argument, if I am 400' below a cloud and get cleared for the visual, what am I supposed to do? Say unable and request vectors back for an ILS? When it is the only cloud in the sky?
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

drunkenbeagle said:
Well, I guess unless they flew up into the clouds, noted the altimeter, and descended, there isn't any way to be certain, is there?

But the Fed in the jumpseater in this case was an idiot. For had he ever read AIM 5-4-22(a), he would know that:
Click to expand...

Thanks DB. Even a old dog learns something new around here. Did not know (or forgot?) about that.
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

drunkenbeagle said:
That part about op specs i quoted is important too! Being part 91, doesn't apply to me, but 121/135 it may be different for you.
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Still a good call to remind those who have maybe "mis-remembered" it. Always learnin' and relearnin' some things.
 
SurferLucas said:
Still a good call to remind those who have maybe "mis-remembered" it. Always learnin' and relearnin' some things.
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We all always are, ain't one of us that knows everything.

Just remember that before we go all sky police on anyone, they may not be operating under the same rules/might have a waiver/you might be the one that is wrong.

Had exactly of those conversations in the air with some who has 10x the hours I do. "That ain't legal.". "well, 121 it ain't, but we are 91...."
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

What I witnessed yesterday: I was level 10,000 on an IFR flight plan maybe 200 feet below the clouds (VFR weather mins being 1,000 below and above 1 mile horiz. if one wanted to use 10.5) and an airplane came off an airport (not giving details) about 10 mile from my position and checked in with center requesting VFR flight following at 10.5 (keep in mind that I am less than 10 miles from him popping in and out of the scud underneath the overcast layer, not VFR--99% VMC, but not VFR). No less than 5 minutes later he gives a PIREP reporting severe turb. at 10.5 with a momentary loss of control. It was windy yesterday, so he could have encountered some wind shear, but somehow I think there is more to the story...I don't see how he was VMC let alone VFR, we were in the same general area. Oh well, that's his business I suppose, atleast he was talking to center so seperation wasn't a factor. Why he didn't just go VFR at 8500 well below the clouds (he was flying a route that I have done no less than 50 times-terrain was not a factor) is beyond me....
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

BobDDuck said:
Just for argument sake, it does happen and it does matter. I was going into an uncontrolled field on the ILS (was reported 200 1/2 on the ASOS) just at the final approach fix when a TCAS target popped up right in front of us coming off the field climbing. We had been making position reports on CTAF for the last 10 minutes and never heard this guy. I still had the Center freq on the second radio and heard him call center "just off airport XXX at 1000 feet looking for his IFR clearance to where ever".

Thankfully center got him radar contact quickly and turned him out of the way so we continued and landed about 2 minutes after he took off and the field was still 200 1/2. Sure, I SUPPOSE there could have been a hole that opened up for those two minutes and he climbed out in it, but it's not very likely.

Was it a huge safety issue? No, not really. With TCAS and EGPWS we can avoid most stuff out there and vector ourselves if we have to, but it's not very legal nor smart. We all are supposed to play by the rules and when somebody doesn't it makes life very difficult for those that do.
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Been there done that and didn't have TCAS...We broke out and had a freaking ultra light right in front of us. I pulled up so hard it wasn't funny and went missed then called center. I also filed a NASA report. Center vectored us for the appoach again and the plan was gone and didn't land there. Unfortunately, them following up on an incident like this is slim to non with so little information.

Bobdduck, would have been interesting if it caused a TA or RA. I still like the time I had some wise arse try and lecture me for landing straight in on an ILS, and how I should have canceled and flown a proper pattern.... ummm apparently cleared for the approach doesn't mean anything to him....
 
Re: Some dummy taking off vfr and picking up an ifr. Only no

Bandit_Driver said:
I still like the time I had some wise arse try and lecture me for landing straight in on an ILS, and how I should have canceled and flown a proper pattern.... ummm apparently cleared for the approach doesn't mean anything to him....
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Lol that's rich.
 
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