Skywest crew caught drinking, not thinking

Markf64 said:
Also as related by Derg a few posts up:

"The day of the flight, he's dressed, unimpaired, does not smell like alcohol, no indication at all that he was on a two-day bender"

Keep in mind that even though he looks OK, he may be suffering from a hangover, which is technically still under the influence:

from the PHAK:
Pg 16-14

"While experiencing a hangover, a pilot is still under the influence of alcohol."
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If a crewmember shows up:

a. On time.
b. Not glassy-eyed.
c. Alert.
d. Not stumbling.
e. Non-lucid
f. Seems, smells, acts competely 100% sober...

It's not my business. He may have been t-bagging a hooker in a fountain of sweet, delicious vodka three-hours earlier, but if he passes the assessment, he passes the assessment.

I see what you're saying, but what you do on your off time isn't my business as much as it isn't their business what I do on my off time.
 
All of the armchair QB's here... How many are trained to be DAPMs or representatives thereof. There is a very specific training required to "spot" and "accuse" a crew member, especially intra-company. None of the training references any internal signs of hang over. So if you are hung over but don't exhibit any signs visible or otherwise, you are one lucky SOB, no matter what the PHAK says.
 
Boris Badenov said:
*shrug* I believe in rules that are black and white. If the regs say don't drink for eight hours before flying, I don't drink for eight hours before flying. If the GOM says don't drink for 12 hours before flying, I don't drink for 12 hours before flying. If the Feds or my company told me not to drink for 48 hours before flying, I'd do that too, or find another job. But these rules that aren't really rules rub me the wrong way extremely. Tell me, when I take the job, what's expected of me. I'll do it, or I'll quit. But don't come at me with "discredit to the company" when the goalposts weren't sighted at the git go. What I do in my off time is my business, and no one else's. So if these people didn't break any FARs, and they were within their GOM's strictures, why are we even having this discussion? If they weren't, and it can be proven, well...why are we even having this discussion?
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Most companies like the FAA hold the trump card. The FAA uses "Careless and Reckless" and companies will use the "AT WILL" employment clause.

Seggy, I know at a couple of Brand X's that HIMS could only be entered before an incident. Post incident Brand X's didn't care because it is like a thief be sorry after he/she got caught.
 
Derg said:
If a crewmember shows up:

a. On time.
b. Not glassy-eyed.
c. Alert.
d. Not stumbling.
e. Non-lucid
f. Seems, smells, acts competely 100% sober...

It's not my business. He may have been t-bagging a hooker in a fountain of sweet, delicious vodka three-hours earlier, but if he passes the assessment, he passes the assessment.

I see what you're saying, but what you do on your off time isn't my business as much as it isn't their business what I do on my off time.
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Derg

I understand. The line I quoted can have a lot of gray area to it. How gray? As Fletch said: Charcoal.
I think of it as more of an honest self assessment prior to climbing into the flight deck.

I jumped into the thread because I, like many of the other posters here, have had personal and sometimes tragic experiences with friends/family who have had problems with alcohol.
It is my sincere hope that the two Skywest crew members being discussed here will seek help and can turn their lives around.
 
Rule #1: Don't talk to cops. Ever. They're not your friend, and they're not there to help you. Like talking to the media, nothing good will come of it. Ever. I've learned this lesson the "hard way", and there's a story on this forum that exemplifies this policy.

Rule #2: Don't talk to anyone that does NOT understand aviation, or the rules of aviation.
 
GX said:
Rule #1: Don't talk to cops. Ever. They're not your friend, and they're not there to help you. Like talking to the media, nothing good will come of it. Ever. I've learned this lesson the "hard way", and there's a story on this forum that exemplifies this policy.

Rule #2: Don't talk to anyone that does NOT understand aviation, or the rules of aviation.
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Especially the press.
 
BlackAsphaltSheepdog said:
This is why I soak tampons in vodka and stick them up my pooper. Keeps the alcohol off the breath.
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I'm no expert on anatomy, but I would guess alcohol in your bloodstream would be traceable on your breath regardless of how it got into your system. At a family reunion last winter, my cousin's wife was telling me about this practice. She's an ER nurse. I guess it's popular with girls who want to avoid the calorie intake. They show up at the ER with alcohol poisoning since they don't know when to stop before it's too late.
 
Van_Hoolio said:
I'm no expert on anatomy, but I would guess alcohol in your bloodstream would be traceable on your breath regardless of how it got into your system. At a family reunion last winter, my cousin's wife was telling me about this practice. She's an ER nurse. I guess it's popular with girls who want to avoid the calorie intake. They show up at the ER with alcohol poisoning since they don't know when to stop before it's too late.
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That's not a joke??? People actually do that??????
 
The good side is that you'll never see this happening with brown liquor. The taste is the point, or we'd be drinking, well, vodka. I mean, honestly, if the entire point is to change your subjective experience of Reality, why not just drop some Excstacy and do it right? Vodka is for clowns and amateurs. Er, and Russians, but that's Different. Because they'll screwing cut you.
 
Boris Badenov said:
The good side is that you'll never see this happening with brown liquor. The taste is the point, or we'd be drinking, well, vodka. I mean, honestly, if the entire point is to change your subjective experience of Reality, why not just drop some Excstacy and do it right? Vodka is for clowns and amateurs. Er, and Russians, but that's Different. Because they'll screwing cut you.
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I've said this for years and people tell me I'm elitist of something. They're just amateurs.
I also say this about mass produced beer. It costs so much more than a fifth of vodka... so since you're only intention is to get smashed, just cut to the chase. And really, why even vodka? Grain alcohol is usually even cheaper.
 
I've never understood why people argue that drinking somehow makes a boring layover city suddenly less boring. If the simple act of having a drink gives you such joy as to make Fargo a fun layover, then you need some help.

And as to the argument that if someone shows up to work looking normal after a two-day bender, that it means they're ok? Sorry, but that ignores the reality of highly-functional alcoholics (HFAs). The movie "Flight" may not have been so realistic as far as flight operations, but it was a perfect look into the world of HFAs. There is an incredible number of alcoholics who live completely normal lives (by appearance), but are pretty much always under the influence.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I've never understood why people argue that drinking somehow makes a boring layover city suddenly less boring. If the simple act of having a drink gives you such joy as to make Fargo a fun layover, then you need some help.
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Agreed. When I was at Eagle, we had some seriously boring-ass overnights. I passed the time reading. This was before everyone had laptops, iPads and smartphones too... so with the plethora of options that we have now for entertainment I find it hard to believe that drinking is the ONLY way to pass time.

And as to the argument that if someone shows up to work looking normal after a two-day bender, that it means they're ok? Sorry, but that ignores the reality of highly-functional alcoholics (HFAs). The movie "Flight" may not have been so realistic as far as flight operations, but it was a perfect look into the world of HFAs. There is an incredible number of alcoholics who live completely normal lives (by appearance), but are pretty much always under the influence.
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It is even possible for a functioning alcoholic to show up to work stone sober. No alcohol at all in their system. Trouble is, they can only function briefly with no alcohol, and they WILL hit the bottle at the next opportunity or the next time the have a "bad day". They may be able to go days, maybe even a few weeks without drinking, but its on their mind. These types are typically binge drinkers, they may not drink every day, but when they do they will put away 6, 8, 10 beers at a shot and may not even feel hungover the next day. Doesn't make them any less an alcoholic, as they are dependent on their "fixes", but it is possible to sobriety-test them at work and they'll pass clean as can be. They're smart enough to know that showing up to work drunk is a career ender, so they'll play by the rules to be clean & sober at work.
 
We had a couple of guys here who were HFAs for many years, always showing up for work sober. They finally figured out a "fix" for having to show up sober to work while still getting their addiction for chemicals satisfied: cocaine. Apparently cocaine isn't detectable in a urine test after 48 hours unless you're using incredibly high amounts, so they figured that since urine tests virtually always came at the end of a trip, that they were good to snort coke in their hotel rooms on the layovers until it was 48 hours prior to the end of the trip, and then they would only have 48 hours between snorting coke and being able to hit the bottle again. The company started doing mid-trip drug tests, and two of them got caught and had their employment terminated.

Chemical dependency is nothing to be taken lightly. If you're flying with someone who is on a two-day binge in Europe on a layover and shows up for work appearing sober, it doesn't mean that he's ok. It just means that he's found a way to function in society in spite of his alcoholism. Probably best to talk to the HIMS rep and see if maybe he can have a chat with the crew member before it's too late.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Probably best to talk to the HIMS rep and see if maybe he can have a chat with the crew member before it's too late.
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*spit-take*. You're suggesting that a pilot should approach a HIMS rep on another pilot's behalf based on their subjective evaluation of said pilot's off-duty lifestyle? Your Union at work!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Better that a union rep get involved before a company rep. Not sure why that surprises you.
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I'm not over-surprised that you think that what another pilot does when they're not at work is any of your business, but I'm damn near shocked that you'd report someone in way that might totally screw up their life because you've somehow diagnosed them based on observing them going on "a two day bender in Europe". Where'd you get your MD? And what business is it of yours, anyway, provided they show up to work fit for duty? MYOFB.
 
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