Should I opt out of CFI program?

jspeed87 said:
I've been thinking if I should opt out of the CFI program at my flight school.
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I too thought that I wouldn't enjoy CFIing. It definately had it's bad days, but it was also a lot of fun. I had one student who basicly only wanted to fly 100 dollar hamburgers, I got my first corprate job through a contact at the flight school, I really learned how to fly the airplane. The difference between what I knew when I got my CFI, and what I know now is staggering.

And then there was this quote from my IOE instructor, "Guys who were CFIs rarely have problems once they are on the line".

I'm flying 135 now, but still freelance on the side. I really look forward to BFRs and checkouts. I get to spend an afternoon flying with some intersting people, and come home 200 bucks richer.

Do I stand a chence in finding a job back at home in NJ/NY/PA? What job optinons are out there in the tri-state area without a CFI?
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Slim to none, unless you are dating somebodies daughter.

Seriously almost all 135 low time SIC positions pay starvation wages, and few if any are hiring low timers now or in the near future.
 
jspeed87 said:
I've been thinking if I should opt out of the CFI program at my flight school. I'm still working on my PSEL. After looking how unhappy instructors are at my flight school, I myself would not like to instruct just to build time. I think flight instructing should be something you really want to do. I would save about 5k if I opt out and would still have a CMEL with about 260 hours of multi engine time. Do I stand a chence in finding a job back at home in NJ/NY/PA? What job optinons are out there in the tri-state area without a CFI?
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That's a normal thing. Everybody at their private pilot stage questions if teaching someone else is even possible. Get that flight experience up and things will fall into place. Now if you'll make this post again when you actually have 260 hours comm/multi, then you do actually have problem.
 
Douglas said:
I remember a time...it was long ago. A random gentleman came on this forum and asked for our opinion. Our opinion wasn't what he wanted to hear but he accepted it for what is was worth, then moved on.

It was magical.
I cried a little that day.
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Was that the guy who had no flight time, but wanted to get into his VLJ ASAP?
 
lol how did i know this thread would be full of people preaching the CFI gospel.

dont drink the koolaid. if you dont want to instruct, DONT. i would be equally unhappy instructing, or being unemployed, which I am right now.

i'd rather wait and do something else until the situation improves.

dont get your CFI if you really dont want to teach, wasting your own money.
 
Personally I would recommend getting it. Once you get it, if you can find a job flying something else than go for it, but still yet I would do the training while you are at it.
 
Some of the worst pilots I've flown with were the guys who never instructed. I'm not saying all the guys who were CFI's were the best pilots, but many who want to "fast track it" all the way seem to lack something.

Your CFI sounds like a tool. With that level of professionalism (as a CFI) I imagine he is doing a disservice to all of his students including you. It shows when somebody approaches his job with professionalism, be it a CFI, a line mechanic or a 121 pilot.

If you give high quality instruction you will become a better pilot yourself and your students will be better pilots.

Sitting right seat in some cargo outfit at 300hrs doesn't mean squat. What exactly will you be learning? More straight and level? How to take a radio hand-off?

Trust me..teaching a student, monitoring him as well as the traffic, ATC, the aircraft systems, the weather requires and will sharpen your situational awareness to a huge degree.

Knowing what your limitations are with the student, allowing another pilot to fly the aircraft to the edge of it's limitations requires mastery of that aircraft. Trust me, you better be darn comfortable with a plane before you let someone do a power on stall with poor technique. Also with students you really have to master FAR knowledge. How else are they going to learn airspace and things like that?

You don't think as a 121 Captain I'm using those same skills as I watch an FO possibly struggling with a landing? I'm monitoring, possibly adding pointers, and knowing what the aircraft, company and my personal limitations are...knowing when it's getting "out of hand."

Bottom line...Don't think of CFI as just some job you have to do. Take some pride, be the best instructor you can and you'll come out a much better pilot yourself. Flying 135 at this point may seem more like a "real gig" but as an FO I don't see you developing all your flying skills to the same degree as someone doing some serious instructing first.
 
jspeed87 said:
So I take it you also got weeded out of the food industry for being an ass? awesome.
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Oh lordy.... Well lets take a step back again and realize what your question was. You have had many whom are in the 121 world, have a great deal of experience, and whom have instructed and some who have not respond to your post. All of which have given you an answer you do not want to hear. If you are as smart as most newbies are in the industry you understand the number one rule is, "DONT BURN ANY BRIDGES." So you might want to take that to heart first and foremost. Secondly, rule number two is, "When you think you know a lot about the industry, you know absolutely jack crap about it."

I just did a four day trip with a pilot whoms 62 years of age. He has been with our company for nearly 22 years. Many hate to fly with him. He's an older man who knows EVERYTHING about ANYTHING. The training department does everything wrong and never teaches you what you need to know in real life type of man. But I tell you what, he's one hell of a stick and has a crap load of hours. More then Mr Captain Sully had even by approximately 5000.

The very last leg we did together we flew from BHM-CLT. We were waiting to take off and he and I were speaking about my experiences. Being furloughed, recalled and now back on the line. I was speaking about how I had to renew my CFI and had a 39/40 pass rate in the past two years. His response to me was, "I knew you were a CFI, by the way you conduct yourself in the cockpit and the way you always have full control of the situation." The day before that we were going into PHL. Although I am not admitting to doing anything against company standards we were in a situation where S turns would get us into landing and we were running real late. The spacing on 35 and 27L in PHL would not allow for us to simply slow down to make it. And they sure as hell werent about to make the A330 on short final go around on 27L. So without hesitation I was told either do S turns or go around. Needless to say he the Captain had made the decision we were doing the darn S turns period. Anyways turned all the automation off. Clear VFR day.... Whipped it right into a 90 degree turn to the left, 180, the other way, and 90 right back onto final with wings level over the threshold.

Some how that one manuever made this man very impressed and thus his comment on the last leg of the day. He said the pitch, airspeed and control of the aircraft was never in question and most of the time he'd have taken control over the aircraft from most FO's. However this is the first time in a while he felt 110% confident it would be done properly and safe.

Point of the story is not that I am one hell of a stick. There are probably many whom are better and have more experience. Its not that anyone else would not have done the same. Yet this mans experience at 62 with over 30 years at the airlines led him to know without ever asking I had taught students. Like many have said before, letting the plane fly down a GS and keep the needles straight is easy. Taking into account how to go from 10,000' in a downwind in DAY to land on 6R in your head takes a little more thinking.... But then again, what does that 62 year old Captain know about flying :)!

At the end of the day. Do whatever the heck you want to do man. But remember that you made the decision. If it works out for you by not doing the CFI great. And if it does not, none of us want to hear from you saying how much of a mistake and or a loss of an opportunity it was. Like in life you made your own decisions, however you will also live with the results. I just hope for your sake you arent shelling out a boat load of money with no job to show at the end of the road. Not many traffic jobs out there (many have cut traffic out of a budget), not many pipeline jobs (pays pretty well and a lot are willing to do it).
 

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meyers9163 said:
Oh lordy.... Well lets take a step back again and realize what your question was. You have had many whom are in the 121 world, have a great deal of experience, and whom have instructed and some who have not respond to your post. All of which have given you an answer you do not want to hear. If you are as smart as most newbies are in the industry you understand the number one rule is, "DONT BURN ANY BRIDGES." So you might want to take that to heart first and foremost. Secondly, rule number two is, "When you think you know a lot about the industry, you know absolutely jack crap about it."

I just did a four day trip with a pilot whoms 62 years of age. He has been with our company for nearly 22 years. Many hate to fly with him. He's an older man who knows EVERYTHING about ANYTHING. The training department does everything wrong and never teaches you what you need to know in real life type of man. But I tell you what, he's one hell of a stick and has a crap load of hours. More then Mr Captain Sully had even by approximately 5000.

The very last leg we did together we flew from BHM-CLT. We were waiting to take off and he and I were speaking about my experiences. Being furloughed, recalled and now back on the line. I was speaking about how I had to renew my CFI and had a 39/40 pass rate in the past two years. His response to me was, "I knew you were a CFI, by the way you conduct yourself in the cockpit and the way you always have full control of the situation." The day before that we were going into PHL. Although I am not admitting to doing anything against company standards we were in a situation where S turns would get us into landing and we were running real late. The spacing on 35 and 27L in PHL would not allow for us to simply slow down to make it. And they sure as hell werent about to make the A330 on short final go around on 27L. So without hesitation I was told either do S turns or go around. Needless to say he the Captain had made the decision we were doing the darn S turns period. Anyways turned all the automation off. Clearn VFR day.... Whipped it right into a 90 degree turn to the left, 180, the other way, and 90 right back onto final with wings level over the threshold.

Some how that one manuever made this man very impressed and thus his comment on the last leg of the day. He said the pitch, airspeed and control of the aircraft was never in question and most of the time he'd have taken control over the aircraft from most FO's. However this is the first time in a while he felt 110% confident it would be done properly and safe.

Point of the story is not that I am one hell of a stick. There are probably many whom are better and have more experience. Its not that anyone else would not have done the same. Yet this mans experience at 62 with over 30 years at the airlines led him to know without ever asking I had taught students. Like many have said before, letting the plane fly down a GS and keep the needles straight is easy. Taking into account how to go from 10,000' in a downwind in DAY to land on 6R in your head takes a little more thinking.... But then again, what does that 62 year old Captain know about flying :)!
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I think what you're trying to say is you need experience to make judgement. There is no other job thats readily available from comm to 1000 or pt135 mins other than CFIng.
 
Baronman said:
If you give high quality instruction you will become a better pilot yourself and your students will be better pilots.

Sitting right seat in some cargo outfit at 300hrs doesn't mean squat. What exactly will you be learning? More straight and level? How to take a radio hand-off?

Trust me..teaching a student, monitoring him as well as the traffic, ATC, the aircraft systems, the weather requires and will sharpen your situational awareness to a huge degree.

Knowing what your limitations are with the student, allowing another pilot to fly the aircraft to the edge of it's limitations requires mastery of that aircraft. Trust me, you better be darn comfortable with a plane before you let someone do a power on stall with poor technique. Also with students you really have to master FAR knowledge. How else are they going to learn airspace and things like that?

You don't think as a 121 Captain I'm using those same skills as I watch an FO possibly struggling with a landing? I'm monitoring, possibly adding pointers, and knowing what the aircraft, company and my personal limitations are...knowing when it's getting "out of hand."

Bottom line...Don't think of CFI as just some job you have to do. Take some pride, be the best instructor you can and you'll come out a much better pilot yourself. Flying 135 at this point may seem more like a "real gig" but as an FO I don't see you developing all your flying skills to the same degree as someone doing some serious instructing first.
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:yeahthat:
 
screw the peanuts.. I'm downing a nice cold heineken right now lol. :beer:
The last few post were some good advice. I'm still early in my training and maybe my ideas of being a CFI will change later on. If I could get lucky flying skydivers in a twin otter back in Jersey, that would be awesome. who knows.. :dunno:
 
jspeed87 said:
screw the peanuts.. I'm downing a nice cold heineken right now lol. :beer:
The last few post were some good advice. I'm still early in my training and maybe my ideas of being a CFI will change later on. If I could get lucky flying skydivers in a twin otter back in Jersey, that would be awesome. who knows.. :dunno:
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FWIW - the skydive outfit here has a twotter, but you need 1000TT to fly it because of insurance.

and about the stick and rudder nonsense....cut the crap. being a CFI is just letting yourself fumble around the airplane while another noobie fumbles around and by stroke of luck you manage not to both crash it.

you want stick skills? take a 10 hour acro class.

ill flatly guarantee i know i can handle a plane better than some 500 hour CFI who has probably done maybe one or two spins, ever.
 
TXaviator said:
FWIW - the skydive outfit here has a twotter, but you need 1000TT to fly it because of insurance.

and about the stick and rudder nonsense....cut the crap. being a CFI is just letting yourself fumble around the airplane while another noobie fumbles around and by stroke of luck you manage not to both crash it.

you want stick skills? take a 10 hour acro class.

ill flatly guarantee i know i can handle a plane better than some 500 hour CFI who has probably done maybe one or two spins, ever.
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How many hours of dual given do you have?
 
meyers9163 said:
....
I just did a four day trip with a pilot whoms 62 years of age. He has been with our company for nearly 22 years. Many hate to fly with him. He's an older man who knows EVERYTHING about ANYTHING. The training department does everything wrong and never teaches you what you need to know in real life type of man. But I tell you what, he's one hell of a stick and has a crap load of hours. More then Mr Captain Sully had even by approximately 5000.

The very last leg we did together we flew from BHM-CLT. We were waiting to take off and he and I were speaking about my experiences. Being furloughed, recalled and now back on the line. I was speaking about how I had to renew my CFI and had a 39/40 pass rate in the past two years. His response to me was, "I knew you were a CFI, by the way you conduct yourself in the cockpit and the way you always have full control of the situation."

.....

Some how that one manuever made this man very impressed and thus his comment on the last leg of the day. He said the pitch, airspeed and control of the aircraft was never in question and most of the time he'd have taken control over the aircraft from most FO's. However this is the first time in a while he felt 110% confident it would be done properly and safe.

Point of the story is not that I am one hell of a stick. There are probably many whom are better and have more experience. Its not that anyone else would not have done the same. Yet this mans experience at 62 with over 30 years at the airlines led him to know without ever asking I had taught students. Like many have said before, letting the plane fly down a GS and keep the needles straight is easy. Taking into account how to go from 10,000' in a downwind in DAY to land on 6R in your head takes a little more thinking.... But then again, what does that 62 year old Captain know about flying :)!
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That's a great story.



:sitaware:
 
TXaviator said:
ill flatly guarantee i know i can handle a plane better than some 500 hour CFI who has probably done maybe one or two spins, ever.
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I am glad you have confidence. A pilot who lacks such a thing would worry me. However a man who drives a sports car is known to be covering up for a lack of something. And to me a pilot whom has to brag about how they can out do another pilot is doing much the same... But again you might be able to fly one hell of a plane and handle it great. However to think you are better then the next is a pure assumption. Being humble is always a great thing at times.
 
Socal321 said:
I think what you're trying to say is you need experience to make judgement. There is no other job thats readily available from comm to 1000 or pt135 mins other than CFIng.
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Yeah, what Socal said... And he seems to know his stuff pretty well :)!
 
jtrain609 said:
d00d he doesn't need dual given, he's got AWESOME!
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a big zero hours of dual given. not a CFI. got about 40 acro, and im not even scratching the surface of what a pro acro pilot knows.

i learned more on my first acro flight about how a plane flies than i ever learned in the first 200 hours of primary/inst/comm instruction.
 
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