Repeal Age 65

Just to add to this debate, my older cousin is a NW DC-9 captain. He's in his late 50's and said he plans to stay till about 63. Speaking of the old NW guys, at his present seniority, DC-9 capt is the best position he (my cousin) can hold right now. Once age 65 was approved he pretty much said there was no doubt that he was going to fly longer.



O and PCL im glad you decided to come back, you definitely are one of my favorite posters on this forum.
 
The rules of the game when they started their careers said that they only owned that seat until the age of 60. You can't change the rules mid-game ..

Sure you can. The government and unions and companies change the rules all the time with the stroke of a pen. With the stroke of a pen, laws change and you owe more taxes. A stroke of the pen and you lose your pension. And funny thing... the big mantra in the political realm is, of course, CHANGE.

No one owns a seat and that has been proven by mergers, furloughs, etc. I understand your frustration having lost LOTS of numbers in mergers, lost a seat due to re-alignment of time in bases and having watched that time come back into base only three months later (and not having grandfather rights), lost a pension, etc.

Best advice is live on what you are making now and enjoy it. Don't bet you are going to make the left seat regardless and focus on quality of life NOW, not expectations because expectations may not always be realized. Good friend scrimped his entire airline career so when he retired, he could do just ANYTHING he wanted. Within 3 months of retirement he suffered a massive stroke which curtailed any plans other than home care.

...of course, it is your life and your choices. But especially with this do-nothing Congress, age 65 is not even a tiny blip on the screen of things they are considering. You are pushing a big rock to nowhere.
 
my understanding of people getting furloughed are the low time right seat people not the captains so how is lowering the retirement age to 60 going to get the copilots hired again? weren't they furloughed because of hire operating costs caused by fuel price increases which ment less people have the money to travel so less tickets were sold.
when I started flying I knew it was going to be expensive and time consuming so the way I look at it is it is a big club that you have to pay your dues in cash and time and work your way up. at least you can work till you 65 in the airlines for the people starting out.
 
So, this is not a fictional airline? Or is it?

Yes, fictional airline with the numbers rounded off to make it easier. I could use real numbers and a real airline if it would make it easier for you.

And, let's say, for the sake of argument, you have delayed age 65 for another 4-5 years, the industry turns around in 2 years (very wishful thinking IMO, but we'll go with that), and then age 65 is implemented a year or two after the airlines finally start recovery. You still delay the recall of furloughed pilots since the people on the street are not automatically and immediately recalled. Reference AA pilots on the street since 9/11.

I still don't see what you're trying to say, here. If the age change hadn't happened, then these pilots wouldn't get furloughed in the first place. The staffing requirements of the airline would require that these pilots stay on staff to replace retiring pilots. Instead of furloughs, the seniority list would merely stagnate. Stagnation is a hell of a lot better than not having a job.

:banghead::banghead::whatever: Missing the point AGAIN!

Missing what point? You compared me to Velo, and Velo is the frickin' man! :rawk:

Let's see, if memory serves me correctly, I believe ALPA did address the PFT issue at the regional level in the 90's, and this is why airlines got away from it.

Your memory doesn't serve you very well. ALPA never addressed the "PFT issue." ALPA allowed the free market to resolve PFT. After the market dried up, airlines had no choice but to pay for their newhire pilots' training. The contracts of the airlines that once had PFT still allow PFT to this day. ALPA never used an ounce of bargaining capital to end PFT. As I've said many times, I've never met a single ALPA rep that gave a second thought to PFT. It has simply never been an important issue.

but I think you are once again looking at it from a me me me standpoint.

To the contrary, I'm not looking at this from a selfish perspective at all, as this issue really doesn't affect me. As I said, my carrier is a very young airline. AirTran and Delta are almost completely immune from the effects of the age change, because both of our pilot groups are very young. Worst case, this age change probably delayed my upgrade by a few months. So, no, I'm not looking at this selfishly. I'm looking at this as an outsider looking in on airlines like CAL and UAL, where junior pilots are getting completely screwed so the senior guys can continue to make payments on that second boat and 3rd BWM. I was just sitting in recurrent class this week and was completely disgusted by something that one of our retired pilots who works in the training department was saying. While our pilots are getting furloughed and displaced out of the left seat, this retired pilot who shouldn't even be still working in our training department was showing off pictures and bragging about this huge house he had built on a lake, complete with dock and country club membership. He should be giving up that training department slot for one of our furloughed pilots to take. Instead, he's living the high life while some new guy with student loans to pay off is being kicked to the curb. Absolute BS.

my understanding of people getting furloughed are the low time right seat people not the captains so how is lowering the retirement age to 60 going to get the copilots hired again?

When older Captains retire, they have to be replaced with a senior FO getting an upgrade and a newhire replacing the senior FO in the right seat. It all trickles down.
 
but fuel prices caused the let goes not the changing of the age. if fuel was 30 dollars a barrel their would be cheaper tickets more flights and more room for future airlines which means more aircraft and more jobs
 
The rules of the game when they started their careers said that they only owned that seat until the age of 60. You can't change the rules mid-game.

And neither can you; when you started your career, it was with the understanding that "seniority is everything", period.

There was never anything magical about Age 60, it was wholly arbitrary (and if you believe the stories, intended to circumvent pilot seniority). What *is* set in stone is that you retire when the government says you retire--whether that's due to an age they specify or a medical condition they specify. The key being the government specifies it.

Sorry, but the pensions argument doesn't cut it. Most of the senior pilots voted to get rid of the pensions, and the ones that still have them aren't retiring anyway. It's a matter of greed, not need. How they can sit there in that left seat and watch a 30 year old junior pilot with three kids and a $50k student loan get furloughed is absolutely despicable.

And why should senior pilots be held responsible for the poor choices of junior pilots? Having 3 kids while highly exposed to the threat of furlough without a substantial financial cushion falls under the category of "self inflicted wound" -- for which I have no sympathy.

Once you land that job, it's yours to keep until the company or the FAA say otherwise. To say that senior pilots have any sort of obligation to give up their seats to pilots junior to them is simply ludicrous and indicative of the sense of entitlement your generation suffers.
 
but fuel prices caused the let goes not the changing of the age. if fuel was 30 dollars a barrel their would be cheaper tickets more flights and more room for future airlines which means more aircraft and more jobs

Yes, fuel prices caused airlines to have to downsize their operations, but the age change has caused that to happen via furloughs instead of normal attrition. Had the age not changed, a couple thousand senior pilots would have retired this year. Instead, a couple thousand junior pilots are going to get furloughed.
 
And neither can you; when you started your career, it was with the understanding that "seniority is everything", period.

I don't want to change the seniority system. I love the seniority system. I'm not the one trying to change rules, here. The old guys did.

There was never anything magical about Age 60, it was wholly arbitrary

The age was set based on medical information that was still corroborated just a few years ago in a peer-reviewed study. Accident/incident rates among pilots start to climb at the age of 55 and have a huge spike at the age of 61, continuing even higher as age increases.
 
Can anyone produce any data comparing 1) the current number of actual furloughs with 2) a reasoned, fact-based estimate of how many jobs would be regained if age 65 was repealed? These two numbers are integral to many of the arguments here, but other than a load of speculation I don't feel they have really been researched.

If the two numbers are comparable, or the jobs saved is much larger than the furloughs, that would support the arguments to repeal. But I still think the safety/experience issue, personal freedom issue, and the fact that the industry is in trouble for so many other reasons
lead me to support keeping the rule.
 
Do a search. The seniority numbers are available on this and other forums for many different airlines. Mandatory retirements were massive for years to come until the age changed. Now it's all been delayed by five years.
 
Do a search. The seniority numbers are available on this and other forums for many different airlines. Mandatory retirements were massive for years to come until the age changed. Now it's all been delayed by five years.

Correct.

Plus, implementation is going to be a pain in the rump because you can't have two 60-plus pilot in the cockpit at any time. You start mixing in retired military FO's and old fart captains, scheduling can get pretty interesting.

Five extra years really won't do jack to shore up years of financial losses, ex-wives or failed participation in MLM programs! :)
 
If you can't have two pilots over 60 in the cockpit at the same time, they really didn't repeal the age 60 rule.

That is going to be a nightmare on routes that are bid by folks with high seniority. High seniority means higher ages and that's going to be a nightmare.

Either do it all the way or don't do it.
 
I'll dig up the memo when I get a chance on Southernjet's plan to deal with it. It's interesting actually.

Even the frequency of recurrent training changes as well.

It's NOT just another 5 years of the rules you dealt with when you were <60 which is interesting.
 
The age was set based on medical information that was still corroborated just a few years ago in a peer-reviewed study. Accident/incident rates among pilots start to climb at the age of 55 and have a huge spike at the age of 61, continuing even higher as age increases.

You need to read a little history. CR Smith at American was buddies with Gen Quesada who was heading up the federal agency. Smith was having a tough time with some of the old guys and convinced Quesada to set an age so he could get rid of the guys. There was no information to support the action but the government did it. And then like many things it got chipped in stone. The age was never based on age or actual data when it was enacted... NEVER.
 
Correct.

Plus, implementation is going to be a pain in the rump because you can't have two 60-plus pilot in the cockpit at any time. You start mixing in retired military FO's and old fart captains, scheduling can get pretty interesting.

Five extra years really won't do jack to shore up years of financial losses, ex-wives or failed participation in MLM programs! :)

Seems the fractionals are not having problems with scheduling or with splashing metal all over Mother Earth. Wonder how they are avoiding that problem.

Also, interesting that this forum often chastises posters for critical comments about crashes but then takes a different track when guys err and choose the wrong carrier (one that goes bust as if they knew it was going to go belly up), wind up with no pension (as if they could have known) and best yet, that they failed to plan adequately for financial reversals when the main argument of this thread is someone is not getting the finances they expected . Now that is a wonderful if unintended irony. :D
 
You need to read a little history. CR Smith at American was buddies with Gen Quesada who was heading up the federal agency. Smith was having a tough time with some of the old guys and convinced Quesada to set an age so he could get rid of the guys. There was no information to support the action but the government did it. And then like many things it got chipped in stone. The age was never based on age or actual data when it was enacted... NEVER.

Your history about CR Smith and Quesada is correct, but your other facts are incorrect. Quesada made sure to gather factual data to back up his change in regulation. He had plenty of documentation for the effects of age upon pilots. That data was always suspect, of course, but it has been verified by several peer-reviewed studies over the years, including a rather recent one. You need to do some research.
 
An 1999 article about the former age-60 rule by John Deakin, a former columnist at avweb.com. While I'm certainly no expert on the history of this issue, I can say that John Deakin has written some awesome articles about flying from an operational perspective. (I make every commercial and CFI student of mine read his articles on manifold pressure and constant-speed props.)

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182090-1.html
 
avweb article by Mr. Deacon said:
Additionally, many pilots then and now take the narrow-minded viewpoint that getting rid of the older pilots will create greater opportunities for upgrades, not thinking that they too will one day reach 60. The vast majority of pilots rarely see the greater principles in any issues, they simply react to what directly affects them, right now.


Another theory favored by those who like the rule is that by getting rid of the old pilots, younger pilots will upgrade sooner, and make more money in the long run, even if they themselves are forced out at 60. Many took the attitude that the rule would be overturned by the time they grew up, so they'd have the best of both sides of the issue, an early upgrade, then would be able to go beyond 60 when their turn came. I have taken great pleasure in reminding a few of these folks, when their time did come, and they fell by the rule. For the record, I've always felt it was a bad, bad rule. I've spoken loudly against it, but if my wife won't listen to me, what hope have I with the FAA?


Initially, ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association) took issue, and filed a number of lawsuits against the Age Sixty Rule, but all were defeated. Over time, as the younger members of ALPA became the majority and took over the power, ALPA reversed itself, and now favors keeping the rule. Again, so much for principle.


On December 1, 1959, the rule was published, and took effect on March 15, 1960. Quesada ruled that no hearings were to be held, and none were. Again, as "Czar," he had (and used) sweeping powers to get his way, and ever since, those pilots who turn 60 are out of luck.


The FAA mentioned early on that they were open to applications for exemptions in individual case, but to date, not one has ever been issued. You will forgive me, I hope, for thinking the FAA used that promise as a sop to reduce opposition, with zero intention of every carrying through.


There had been no crashes due to old folks in the cockpit, no "trouble" of any kind. It is astonishing to me, because all the cockpits affected by the Age Sixty Rule (Part 121 carriers only) had additional crewmembers as a backup! There have been a number of in-flight deaths in the cockpit over the years (all under age 60, many much younger), and in every case, the other pilot has successfully landed the airplane without incident, as trained, and as expected. No big deal. In fact, there's even a standard procedure for it, the copilot calls up the cabin crew to help, and issues his first order as PIC, "Drag that dead ******* out of my seat!"


The FAA, prompted by the adverse reaction, set up a "study" in the early sixties, but abandoned it before the final results were made public. In 1969, an outside report was commissioned and completed, but no results were ever made public.


Gee, guess why? Do you think it's just possible the results might not have been what the FAA wanted, and they simply suppressed that which they did not like? No, no, of COURSE not. They'd never do a thing like that. Would they?


In 1979, the FAA reviewed a Navy study on the long-term health histories of 1,000 aviators but concluded that the study failed to provide an adequate basis for revising the Age Sixty Rule. In other words, the FAA doesn't need, nor are they interested in no feelthy, steenking real data, unless it supports their nutty position.


In 1979, Congress finally got interested, and directed (by legislation) the National Institutes of Health to do some research on retaining or ditching the rule. A panel was convened outside the authority of the FAA, and "expressed doubts about the need for all pilots to step aside at age sixty." They further suggested a study of selected captains over sixty.


The FAA, ever willing to pile insanity upon insanity, issued two NPRMs after reviewing the NIH report. First they suggested extending the Age Sixty Rule to flight engineers! The arrogance! Second, they proposed what the NIH had suggested, a test program for selected pilots over sixty.


Two years later, after the furor had died down, the FAA quietly dropped both proposals.
Gee, any of this ring true in this conversation???:rolleyes:
 
Seems the fractionals are not having problems with scheduling or with splashing metal all over Mother Earth. Wonder how they are avoiding that problem.

Fractionals are not 121, so are not (I believe) subject to the same scheduling restrictions.
 
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