SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Mr. Deacon utilizes selective fact referencing and ignores everything that doesn't back up his preconceived notions. His articles on this issue have been widely debunked and disregarded by air line pilots.
Repeal Age 65
- Thread starter Patrick
- Start date
Orange Anchor
New Member
No they are not subject to the same FARs but the issues are no different. Old guys in airplanes with pax... were SAFETY the real issue and if the data were available to show definite and significant cognitive decline, NO ONE would fly commercial after a given age.
ICAO and others have data that support advancing the age limit. I too have read various studies and one thing that comes out is that older pilots MAY suffer some decline which is often reduced by heuristics developed over years of flying. One can cherry pick incidents and accidents to prove any argument but remember, cause is not found, it is constructed by investigators.
Remember too that when Smith and Quesada colluded on the age 60 limit, we were not living as long and the life expectancy was considerably shorter. Guys smoked, didn't exercise, only consumed water when it was mixed with scotch or bourbon.
I was directly referencing you talking about the "scheduling issues", that do not apply no non-121 operations. I was not talking about the entire issue at hand.
Not having 2 60+ guys in the cockpit is a 121 rule, and does not apply to fractionals, so of course the fractionals are not going to have the scheduling issues.
Not having 2 60+ guys in the cockpit is a 121 rule, and does not apply to fractionals, so of course the fractionals are not going to have the scheduling issues.
Orange Anchor
New Member
Let's see.. Darby is full of ****. Deacon <sic> is full of it but you have the real inside truth.
FWIW, I know John personally and know John's background. C-46s with Air America, hired by IASCO for JAL and flew 747s for years all over the world, now flying a G-V, was a DPE and also was at one time a NDPR
( http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/programs/examiner.html#P63_3152) and qualified to not only fly but give type rides (LOAs) in groups B through E... flew such machines as the P-38, Zero, Hellcat, Corsair and others with the SoCal chapter of the CAF but he is a know-nothing with pre-conceived notions? Intended or otherwise, that is funny.
So, let's see what you've got. Cite the sources for Quesada's age 60 limit being done before he pushed through the act.
http://tinyurl.com/35mnl3 Note that the findings came after Smith and Quesada began talking.
Note too that shortly after Smith and Quesada began talking, the NPRM was floated and shortly after it was enacted, Quesada retired and joined the board of what airline? American? Wonder how that happened?
http://www.rupa63.org/Age60Issues.htm scroll down until you read the piece by Vincent CzaplyskiToo late for us but......
Age 60 Rule
March 15, 2000
www.avweb.com/ news/aeromed/ 181875-1. html
and finally you may want to read this piece by Patrick R. Veillette, Ph.D at BCA. http://tinyurl.com/658jby. But then, maybe he too is just full of preconceived notions.
I could be wrong but it seems you have lots of opinion and not much fact. Guys with considerable experience and knowledge of the industry, hu-facts, etc are full of it but you have the real truth. And your posts also seem to have a strong sense that you are somehow entitled to the left seat. (Reminds me of the young prince considering regicide.) Anyway, I've flown with a number of guys who were always hot about something. Most didn't make it to 60s and more than a few didn't make it into their 50s. Were I a betting man, I would put my money on you being out of the cockpit within the next decade due to health issues. I sincerely hope it doesn't take some chest pains for you to learn that no one is entitled to anything. The very next breath you take is not guaranteed... and a wise man remembers that.
Have a joyful weekend and next flight.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Orange, I've had these pointless age 60 debates so many times that I'm tired of citing references. There are studies that I could point you to that prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that occurrences of accidents and incidents shoot up past a certain age, but it wouldn't change your opinion, and this law isn't going to change either. You and the rest of the old codgers got your way, and now you're going to sit back and enjoy your seniority while the junior guys gets screwed. Good for you. Just don't expect to have an enjoyable trip with your copilots who are looking for any excuse to write you up and get rid of you.
Nice!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I have lots of friends that are losing their jobs and facing bankruptcy, divorce, etc... because of these over 60 guys. "Nice" isn't on the table anymore.
gtpilot
Well-Known Member
While it may be slightly biased, it sure was fun to read!
Personally, I think the age 60 (or 65) rule is dumb. Whether it's aviation or law enforcement or whatever, if someone wants to work and can pass required physical and mental tests showing competence, let them work! Otherwise, why not enact an age 25 rule to cover the immaturity issue - from the F double A:
Our friends facing job loss can blame poor airline management and possibly oil speculators. Those facing bankruptcy should have planned better - everyone knows this is a cyclical industry and to fail to plan appropriately is a gamble they took. Divorce? You're seriously blaming a poor marital relationship on guys not retiring?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There is no available test to determine cognitive abilities in pilots.
And pilots staying past 60. Sorry, but you can't avoid the fact that less pilots would be getting furloughed if the hundreds of over 60 pilots had retired on schedule. Facts are facts.
No amount of planning will prepare you for zero income. It can help you get past a few months of a job search, but right now, no job are available to search for. These guys are looking at virtually zero job prospects. No amount of planning in the world would have helped them.
Most marital problems are caused by money, or the lack thereof. I know a rEAL pilots that lost his marriage and custody of his kids after the EAL strike. His wife blamed him for not crossing the picket line and instead going into construction, which obviously paid a lot less.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Wow, talk about showing your true colors. :whatever: Good luck out there, and watch your back when you become the old codger, apparently. No matter what your individual situation is, or what your motivation for staying/going, doesn't matter in your opinion. According to you, they are all rich and can afford to retire, and should get out of your seat. What happened to seniority? There is no reason to threaten the over 60 people.
So, in your opinion, we are pissed at the low-ballers (in mostly Velo's eyes...even though you work at a LLC), start jumpseat wars, and now are saying you will undermine your Cappie to get him/her fired because that's "your seat". Wow. That is just sad to read as somebody's actual true colors.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Once again, I will point out to you that even you said it would eventually happen. I believe this was enacted by the federales, not by certain airlines. How would ALPA have delayed this enactment? Have you noticed that the FAA and the US are getting more in line with ICAO and International Laws when it comes to flight plans, and other items, not just age 65. Personally, I don't care where ALPA stood on this, it was out of their hands. You can blame Prater all you want. Cry all you want. Blame every Captain over 60 all you want. Undermine them and look for ways to get them out of "your" guaranteed seat, according to the contract that only exists in your head (haha, I still find that funny personally...me me me at it's finest, but you say it's not).
There are jobs out there. You just have to be willing to move, or commute, or go overseas, or network outside of the airlines.
Whatever, I'm done.
Orange Anchor
New Member
So you got nothing? Or are you cherry picking to support your preconceived notions ?
Not opinion. Just facts. Veillette's article includes studies that show an almost linear cognitive decline from age 28 and I doubt the heuristics gained from 30-35 yrs of flying are already in place.
Everybody gets screwed at some time, sport. It is not the event that determines the outcome but the attitude. And I would hate to try to navigate with yours.
Wow. the attitude just keeps getting worse and worse. FWIW, I did check airman work for more than a few years and had no fear of some F/O writing me up. Were I still at the airline, I would be glad to fly with you and let you take your best shot. If your response to challenges to support your opinons are any indication, I would have no worries.
Finally, let's get back to others who know nothing. FWIW, I checked the registry on Deakin. FYI...
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LANDCOMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE SEA ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER GLIDER
Type Ratings
A/B-727 A/CV-240 A/CV-340 A/CV-440 A/CW-46 A/DC-3 A/DC-4 A/EA-500S A/G-IV A/LR-JET A/M-202 A/M-404 A/N-B25
ALL MAKES AND MODELS OF SINGLE AND MULTI ENGINE PISTON POWERED AUTHORIZED AIRCRAFT.AUTHORIZED EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT: B-29 EC-121 FA-C123 G-F6F G-F8F(VFR ONLY) H-HURC MI-A6M N-P51 N-T28(VFR ONLY) SPITFIR.[/quote] Just in case you are wondering about no 747 type, John had a Japanese license.
So, 13 type ratings, more than 30,000 hours,world wide experience.. what have you got except anger, a bad attitude and frustration along with silly, juvenile and unprofessional threats to write up your Captain?
Orange Anchor
New Member
Let's cut him some slack. The guy is doing more damage to himself (and his family if he has one) than anyone else.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You need to learn how things work on CapHill. This bill was stuck in Rep. Oberstar's committee, held up there for a long time. Oberstar is ALPA's best friend on the Hill. He's been holding up this legislation for a long time at ALPA's request. As soon as ALPA's policy on Age 60 changed, Oberstar released the bill from committee and brought it to the floor. Had ALPA continued pressing Oberstar to hold up this bill, it never would have gotten to the floor, at least not for the foreseeable future. ALPA has a lot of power with certain members of Congress, and Oberstar is the prime example of that.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I've got quite a bit, but I'm really not too concerned about throwing opposing studies back and forth again and again. If you'd like, you can search the old posts here and on flightinfo that deal with this issue. I've posted references to studies on numerous occasions, so if you're interested, you can find them. I'm not going to go digging for them again, because it's really irrelevant. The rule changed, you geezers won. Now you're basically stealing money out of my friends' pockets. Enjoy.
gtpilot
Well-Known Member
Fact is, if mommy and daddy didn't pay for flight training, less pilots would be available and therefore, less pilots would be furloughed. Want to blame mommy and daddy too?
I have planned so that I can live for two years with zero income. I knew what this industry was like when I started and had the intelligence to plan ahead. I have no sympathy for those who didn't expect this and who were living beyond their means.
The reality is, the marital problems were there with or without the money. You can blame whatever you want, but if a marriage is stable, it will last regardless of the external circumstance.
You are making emotional arguments that do not stand. The fact of the matter is, everyone needs to take a good old dose of personal responsibility. You can't blame bankruptcy, divorce or other personal problems on the age 65 rule.
It's nice that you think you're right and stick to it, but at least come up with valid arguments!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That doesn't really make any sense. The number of pilots that airlines have hired and require is not affected by how many pilots "mommy and daddy" paid for. There may be a surplus of pilots on the market because of that, but it has no effect on how many pilots are getting furloughed. Airlines hired only the number of pilots that they needed, regardless of how many were paid for by "mommy and daddy."
If you have that much money stashed away, then you're doing better than 95% of America. For me to replace a couple of years of income, I'd need to have about $130k in liquid assets, and I'm only a 2nd year FO. Someone like a UAL furloughee that was hired in '99 would need somewhere in the neighborhood of $200k in liquid assets. Quite simply, nobody keeps that kind of money lying around.
The validity of the arguments is up to each person to decide. Since every survey and poll ever done by ALPA has shown a majority agreeing with me, I think my side has quite a bit of "validity."
gtpilot
Well-Known Member
Point.
While I disagree that age 65 is the root cause of the problem, it does make the current situation harder to deal with. However, it's kind of like drilling in ANWAR (which I support) - repealing age 65 will do little to help the problem and the whole argument is moot in a couple of years anyway.
I don't have a huge wad stuffed away, however, I don't have a car payment, my house payment is minimal and I can cut back on the luxuries for long enough to survive. I also have a non-aviation degree and can go back to entry level in another professional field if need be. The aviation industry has gone through this cycle before and it will again (and yes, it has been this bad before!). Failure to plan otherwise is foolish!
56% (in 2005) may be a majority, but not a mandate. Supporting discrimination is not valid, no matter what majority supports it. At one point the majority of our nation supported slavery. Perhaps an extreme example but still applicable.
As far as cognitive decline goes, there is a noticeable difference after 55 but there's very little jump statistically between 55 and 70. After 70, there is a big statistical decline. Which do you choose? 55, 60, 65 or 70? Unfortunately, other than routine check rides and medicals, there is no valid test to measure mental/physical decline for pilots. Personally, I say forget the age limit and let our current system continue to prune the unfit pilots, as it has in the past and will continue to do.
Peace. Marc
Orange Anchor
New Member
About the only thing you have proven with your posts is Phil Gramm was right. You seem to exemplify his argument.
But I do have to retract one argument. There are some guarantees. You are going to be very well known by the Captains and F/Os when/IF you make it through upgrade. GUARANTEED!
from another post of yours
Such a bad attitude in so short a time? Wow. I remember another axiom proven repeatedly in the cockpit. Bad F/Os make really bad Captains.
But keep posting. You're like the proverbial train wreck in progress...
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I disagree. I've talked to ALPA staffers that have been around for over 30 years at ALPA, and they've said that they've never seen it this bad. I lived through the post-9/11 recession, and it was a cake-walk compared to this. This is truly as bad as this industry has ever seen.
Never claimed a mandate, but a single vote is still a majority. Thomas Jefferson once said that a single vote majority is just as valid as a unanimous decision. Also, the 2005 numbers were backed up by several polls taken during 2007 after Prater took office. They weren't released publicly, but I received the results as a member of the BOD. Prater ran poll after poll after poll, and he still could never get a polling sample that supported changing the age. It was consistently pro-60.
The Supreme Court has already ruled that this is not discrimination, and they've refused to hear any further challenges to age limits in safety-sensitive jobs. Discrimination is a red herring in this case.
There is actually a very big jump after 60. The increase after 55 is mild compared to the post-60 jump, according to the data in the studies I've seen. But if you'd like to make 55 the max age limit, I'm all for that, too.
