"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[meritflyer]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

:gasp:

Unreal. I was going to respond but realized I've already been down this road with Marky too many times. I hope you get to the left seat of that 777 you have posted on your wall. I really do.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Regardless of your viewpoint down the road, one thing seems clear to me-

Whether they continue to exist in present form or in a much diminished capacity, the time it will take many of us to reach the higher levels of pilot pay scales is much greater than previously thought.

As such, we all need to be hammering the walls about better work rules, better compensation, and better assurance of career expectations.

It is NOT acceptable to pour water back and forth from one glass to another when the 'water' in question is made of OUR JOBS.

Airline management has shown a continually callous and detached viewpoint towards the rank and file employees that they rely on.

All to often we hear them say, "We have to think of the shareholders and investors."

What they need to realize is that every single day we put everything we have into our respective companies. We invest in success through our collective sweat and toil. The return on our investment is how we sustain ourselves to continue that process.

If we, as airline employees, are not receiving returns on OUR investments, the very nature of the business relationship is unfairly skewed and tragically flawed.

Accept nothing short of a REAL WAGE FOR REAL WORK.


(P.S.- Ignore the troll. He's probably some airline management lurker that's trying to distract us from the fact that we've gone public with their dirty little secret.)

 

[thehobbit]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your knowledge, skill sets, and experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your knowledge, skill sets, and experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

And people go crazy because I provide my opinion on my profession. . .:whatever:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

Agreed on all counts. I understand jtrain's pessimism, as he's suffering through a furlough, but I don't believe he is providing people with an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint. His views in this thread, IMHO, are colored by his resentment over what has happened to his job at XJT. Things aren't as bad as they seem. And 120-seat airplanes at regionals? I think not.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I'm bored and in a weird mood, so I guess I'll feed the troll...

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your 1knowledge, 2skill sets, and 3???experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

It's "There" in that syntax, you listed 3 things, not two, and it's spelled "serf." We're talking plebeians working for poor wages from their lords, not blonde haired people on waxed down fiberglass, right?

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

Spoken like someone that has never been there and is looking from the outside in. I took a job as an FO, but I wasn't happy with the low pay. I took it b/c I have a family, needed the medical insurance provided and it would give me more days at home with my family.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

"Limited amount of interruption in operations?" Um, you DO know how long it takes to train a new FO right? I was hired in March of 06, and I wasn't fully trained and on the line until late May of 06. I'd say Nearly 3 months of having no FOs to run flights would kill an airline. There's no getting around the time frame, either. The programs are approved by the FAA, and any new program would need a new approval from the FAA. Guess which one would take less time?

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

Ground crew is easier to replace than an FO. I was a ramper once, too, so at least I have a clue what I'm talking about.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

So you took the job? Sounds like mechanics are just as happy to be paid "serf wages" as FOs.....

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

You also have to take other considerations into the pay. An instructor that makes $40 an hour freelancing has to handle his own advertising to get students, carry his own insurance and find his own airplanes. Insurance is a BIG chunk of that $25/hr difference.

In closing, if you're gonna talk about people only entering the enlisted military ranks b/c they're stupid and ignorant, you might wanna proofread your posts a little better. No, make that a LOT better. Misuse of tenses, words spelled wrong, I lost count of the number of run-on sentences and overall poor use of punctuation. At least we know why YOU enlisted....

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Agreed on all counts. I understand jtrain's pessimism, as he's suffering through a furlough, but I don't believe he is providing people with an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint. His views in this thread, IMHO, are colored by his resentment over what has happened to his job at XJT. Things aren't as bad as they seem. And 120-seat airplanes at regionals? I think not.

I hate to say it man, but I think you're wrong here. We don't want to see 120-seaters at the "Regionals", but I think we'll see it eventually anyways.

Either that, or a glut of 74 and 90 seaters... and a parking of many of the existing 120 seaters.

 

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I hate to say it man, but I think you're wrong here. We don't want to see 120-seaters at the "Regionals", but I think we'll see it eventually anyways.

Either that, or a glut of 74 and 90 seaters... and a parking of many of the existing 120 seaters.

What kind of analytical thought process are you using to come to this conclusion? Why in the world would mainline pilots give up scope again? 120 seats at the regionals? What mainline pilot group are you thinking is going to do that? Are you kidding me? Shoot over at CAL they're still at 50 seats, assuming the Qs don't count.

This statement you just made is exactly why I think you guys are being highly pessimistic. It just isn't logical.

"Regional Pilots welcome to the rest of your career" I think not. In 5 years the Member Announcements section will be booming with people moving up, if not earlier....

 

[Gonzo]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

What kind of analytical thought process are you using to come to this conclusion? Why in the world would mainline pilots give up scope again? 120 seats at the regionals? What mainline pilot group are you thinking is going to do that? Are you kidding me? Shoot over at CAL they're still at 50 seats, assuming the Qs don't count.

This statement you just made is exactly why I think you guys are being highly pessimistic. It just isn't logical.

"Regional Pilots welcome to the rest of your career" I think not. In 5 years the Member Announcements section will be booming with people moving up, if not earlier....

It is 50 seats at AMR too. But the funny thing is more then 50.1% pilots fly planes bigger then 150 seats. That means they more then likely will give up scope for pay and pension. I hope he is wrong but I think he is right.

At this rate in five years most of us are going to be waiting to upgrade.

 

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

It is 50 seats at AMR too. But the funny thing is more then 50.1% pilots fly planes bigger then 150 seats. That means they more then likely will give up scope for pay and pension. I hope he is wrong but I think he is right.

At this rate in five years most of us are going to be waiting to upgrade.

Eagle flies CR7s....

50% of the 50.1% of the pilots flying planes bigger than 150 seats are FOs and would probably like to upgrade sometime. Pretty sure eliminating all planes under 150 seats would decrease that chance greatly.

I know I'm not the only one that thinks the idea of regionals flying 120 seat planes is silly. The guys at the majors are now regretting letting the RJs go to the regionals. It would be purely asinine for them to let even more scope go.

I believe the new Delta/NWA agreement tightened scope. So there goes one strike against the 120 seat theory. I know for a fact all the Delta pilots on this board would gladly fly the CR7 and/or the CR9. I'm pretty sure they would all vote a big NO if management came with a plan to send the everything 120 seats and lower to the regionals.

Management has gotten all the concessions they can out of labor. They will have to look elsewhere to reduce cost.

As far as the future, this is what I believe will happen.

There's almost no room left to cut cost. There's too much competition out there resulting in too much capacity. As a result the market will balance itself out eventually because it will just be survival of the fitest. The airlines will just compete to lose the least amount of money until enough carriers fail.

The good news? Even with all the furloughs and future airline failures there is still not enough pilots to replace the aging baby boomers. Age 65 was just a temporary fix. The hiring boom we saw last year was just a glimpse of the madhouse we have awaiting...

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I don't think we'll see 120 seat airplanes at the regionals, but I do think we'll continue to see regionals get more 76 seat airplanes. So, if regionals get 2 76 seat airplanes instead of one 120 seat airplane, the damage is still done, and mainline pilots don't even need to give up more scope. It's already gone. Like I said, look at NWA. Are they replacing the DC-9s they retire with 195s at mainline or 175s at Compass?

Reducing the number of seats reduces the supply, thus allowing airlines to raise prices (theoretically). So, going from a 100 seat airplane to a 76 seat airplane is a win-win for mainline management.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I hate to say it man, but I think you're wrong here. We don't want to see 120-seaters at the "Regionals", but I think we'll see it eventually anyways.

Either that, or a glut of 74 and 90 seaters... and a parking of many of the existing 120 seaters.

I don't think we'll see much further on scope erosion. Most mainline MECs are currently working on strategies to recapture scope, so giving more away isn't really in the cards at this point. A more militant brand of reps like Capt. Wallach at UAL have taken the reigns of most MECs, so it's a different ball game than years past. If anything, I think we'll see some regionals go bankrupt over the next 5-10 years and the number of RJs will actually shrink.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

That'll began soon. . .the moons and planets are aligning.

So long as the failing companies are actually allowed to fail instead of going into some "restructuring" ########.

Restructuring in the airline business is trying another failing policy of losing money.

 

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I don't think we'll see 120 seat airplanes at the regionals, but I do think we'll continue to see regionals get more 76 seat airplanes. So, if regionals get 2 76 seat airplanes instead of one 120 seat airplane, the damage is still done, and mainline pilots don't even need to give up more scope. It's already gone. Like I said, look at NWA. Are they replacing the DC-9s they retire with 195s at mainline or 175s at Compass?

Reducing the number of seats reduces the supply, thus allowing airlines to raise prices (theoretically). So, going from a 100 seat airplane to a 76 seat airplane is a win-win for mainline management.

FYI, the new DAL/NWA agreement tightened scope by capping the number of 76 seaters even less than they are now. Pretty sure the new DCI is at or maybe even above that number...

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I agree with 777 and PCL. I don't think its going to get worse. I think we may start seeing 195s and the types on mainline lists instead of regionals, its already happening with Airways, NWA, Jetblue... Those could have easily been put on with a regional. I know its tough for alot of people right now with all the furloughs and what not but I think it is going to get better. I agree that you should be comfortable with the fact that you may end up living out your career at a regional and prepare for that, but I don't think the picture is truly as gloomy as some are painting it. The days of making 400K flying a 747 and having 20 days off a month are probably over but I won't complain if I make 100K or 150k and fly 14 days a month.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

100k-150k annually yields an ability to develop a safe retirement.

Unfortunately we have been going downward as opposed to upward in regards to pay.

I know I know - pay isn't everything.

But when there is no upticking, and sure - we're our own enemies - whatever, doesn't mean we can't work to improve our collective bargaining agreements (for those of us who believe in such devices) that yields to the negative impression of "Is this worth it?"

Because to be honest, much like another member here - I enjoy flying, but I got into this profession for the ability to develop a safe, reliable source of income come retirement. That means making 6 figures and change through a large portion of my career.

I mean I suppose if I came from the projects and hadn't had the youthful experiences of being surrounded by EAL/DAL Captains who enjoyed a very comfortable lifestyle I'd be happy making 35-80k a year for the rest of my life. But, I won't be. And yes, if that ends up looking like it'll be the majority of my earning potential - I'll be out of this industry pretty shortly there after to seek other more lucrative employment.

That though, doesn't mean that lucrative employment opportunities are dime a dozen, as we all know they are not. But people can market themselves well in certain industries a little bit better than the airline game considering negative impacts the industry has faced over the past two decades and will surely encounter in the future.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I look at things this way:

15 years ago folks said, "Jets at the regionals? Whatever, no big deal! We don't want those 50 seat jets!"

Then a few years later those mainline guys said, "Uhh...well, things are going down the crapper, if we let them fly 70 seaters, we can keep our retirement!"

Then we get 70 seaters at the regionals.

Then a few years later those mainline guys said, "Oh man, we're in REALLY bad shape, if we let them fly 86 seaters, we can keep our retirement!"

Then we get 86 seaters at the regionals.

It's only a matter of time guys. The formula works, it reduces the overall cost to the mainline companies and they will do what they have to do to force our hand with this. The mainline companies will have more bankruptcies of convenience and more contracts will get gutted.

It's a driving principal of capitalism guys, any cost that CAN go down WILL go down one way or another. We can't stop it, we're not strong enough to, and history tells us that we've never been strong enough to. I think that we're deluding ourselves by saying otherwise, when to me the facts are incredibly clear.

There's a trend here, and a couple of cats from the internet ain't gonna stop it. The only thing that will stop it is a REAL union, which none of us have. We're divided, and we'll fall just like we have every other time.

I mean seriously, when was the last time a pilot group REALLY stuck it to management and was successful in the end? American's contract is gone, and so is United. Management won guys, and Charlie is right; this is our career now.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

FYI, the new DAL/NWA agreement tightened scope by capping the number of 76 seaters even less than they are now. Pretty sure the new DCI is at or maybe even above that number...

I've been asking to see the new deal, but no one wants to offer up the goods. If you've got it, I'd love to see it. If they tightened the scope, good for them. Like I said, I'd much rather fly that -900 at Delta than here, even if it meant going back to the right seat for a bit.

If the current DCI numbers are already at that number and some fat needs to be cut, I guess that tells us where those planes that were going to Comair are going. Not sure if Mesaba and Compass have taken delivery of all their orders yet or not, so that might be a factor as well. Now, if they tie the scope in with number of mainline planes (common practice), then mainline might take delivery of some new airframes to offset the difference.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The only thing that will stop it is a REAL union, which none of us have.

I beg to differ.

 

[Gonzo]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

ALPA = Air Line Pilots Association
WHY?
Association sounds more white collar.
Union is blue collar works and a lot of pilots like to think they are better then blue collar workers.