"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[killbilly]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Don’t expect too much public sympathy in your campaign.

Management has a very good tactical advantage with the flying public. Combined with ever changing fees, lack of service, low employee morale, rotten attitudes, and actions of TSA at security checkpoints has created commercial airline travel something similar to a Gestapo DMV. After going through that do you think the flying public is going to be sympathetic to our plight? F-No! They are going to still try to find the lowest fare online because they want to make sure they are paying the cheapest and not pay one red cent more than the next guy to go through that experience again. Management knows and uses this to whipsaw labor inline to their own means.
Yes the perceptions of all pilots from the flying public are different than reality. I just tell them what they want to hear. One guy asked me how bad are things for us. I told him now I have to fly twice a month to my second home in Oahu to work on the yard and pool because I had to let my house staff go.

Cheap fun but it’s the only fun I can afford…

Don't confuse fear-mongering with fact-building. And you wouldn't be able to market this way within the airport structure. It would have to be a mass-market message; TV, print, radio.

The people will create their own fear, honestly. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the public in this regard. Just tell them the truth, back it with facts. Don't even go emotional. They'll get it.

More importantly, your business travelers are the meat of your business, I believe, and they will most assuredly get it.

I know I do a lot of cheerleading for SWA - but there is a damn good reason for it, and it has very little to do with the fares. Ironically, they have a relatively happy labor group, too. Go figure.

 

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Just my opinion....

The public won't care...

Most pilots don't care....

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?

Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...

Peace!

 

[cfii2007]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Just my opinion....

The public won't care...

Most pilots don't care....

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?

Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...

Peace!

Yes, but by then the airlines will be complaining about the pilot "shortage" and pressure the FAA for one man cockpits......

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
A-FREAKING-men, Steve!!

Well said!!

 

[Cruise]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

Damn straight man!!!!!

This "stepping stone" becomes more a career every day. Doesn't mean I want to spend the rest of my days slogging it out in the trenches....but harsh reality of the matter is the majority of us will do just that. It pisses me off as well to hear the "I'm not spending my career here" guys. :banghead: OK good luck w/ that. You better believe I will be doing whatever I can to escape the regional world when (if) the music ever starts playing again....but in the meantime, I will be doing everything I can to improve the regional workplace. This IS a career.....hopefully it's not gonna be mine, but I'm going to plan for the worst and work towards the best.

Wake up people, we need to start changing the professioal pilot collective attitude towards this "stepping stone" mentality. Better do whatever you can to improve work rules/ payrates.....'cause chances are you're going to be at the regional level much longer than originally planned, and YOU'RE GONNA NEED 'EM!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Just my opinion....
The public won't care...
Most pilots don't care....
The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...
Most people not caring....
Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?
Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...
Peace!

Think again. Right now, the AA pilot union is watching AMR circle their most sacred contract clauses like a bleeding surfer in a circle of sharks.

The "staffing floor" and various scope clauses... may well be history AND soon. Why? Because the AA/APA kids are too expensive. They're gonna go get some new kids... or.. in my opinion, continue to swell Eagle up from beneath them... for the time being, anyhow.

Then they'll start trying to subcontract out more Eagle flying.. and the cycle goes on, and on, etc..

The status quo of airline pilot career progression has no guaranteed timeline, has no guarantee of future development, and no guarantee of a static industry.

Wake up and smell the coffee man.

 

[woodreau]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Ahh, yes. The Chamonix II, I believe she's called. There's something on one of my calendars about swimming on that thing next month. I'll have to look into it.

I'm glad you think I did well. I had a fairly dim idea of what I was doing and little more.

We should do it again sometime soon. I had a blast. If only the weather hadn't sent us back to port, eh?

What does it take to get a sailor's license? Is there money in it?

You can start with an OUPV - that's the entry level one anyway - that will allow you to run fishing charters.

But if you're in it for the money - you need to look at working cargo ships. There's no money in running passenger ships - plus you have to deal with more BS from the self-loading cargo.

 

[ChrisH]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The other day I was chatting up a pretty gal who tends bar at night to pay for her masters degree. Her day job? Financial planner. She told me her boss's secretary makes twice what I do.

I was insulted and embarrassed.. but not because of what she said. I was insulted to think that my value as a highly proficient aviator is worth half that of someone who answers phones and types memos all day. I was embarrassed because myself and those like me have let it happen on our watch.

Another thing that you should probably be insulted/embarrased by is that I, who currently work for the same company you work for, will probably make as much, or more, as a first year ramp rat, than many FO's will make. When I was a ramp rat for XJT, we had an agent, who by working quite a bit of over-time (paid at 1.5 x payrate), made as much, or more than many XJT captains had made that year. I made more than guarantee pay for any first year FO, and could have made as much, or more, than a 2-3rd year FO, with a little over-time (and there was alway tons of over-time)

Its sad when the person loading the bags, and dumping the lavs, etc., are making as much, or more, than the people flying the airplanes.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Do those rampers / gate agents have to get a medical certificate for the rest of their life, every 12 months?

Do those rampers / gate agents have to go through recurrent every 6 months to show that they can still perform the job - in essence - to show that they do not need to be let go because they suck at flying a box?

Do those rampers / gate agents have a certificate that can quickly be revoked or suspended by a federal agency?

:banghead:

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

You can't really complain, at this point. They offered you a crappy pay scale, and you guys all took it. A majority of the people that took these RJ jobs wouldn't have gotten them at 3 years ago with 800/100, or even 1200/200.

No one forced you to work there, and that is the problem. Too many people with SJS, or other motivations that will sacrifice their credit, their family, and other things in life to fly for a RJ company for 18-20k a year and then get shown the door after a year.

I know it sounds harsh, and I don't mean to minimize your frustrations, but you were obviously motivated by something besides better pay for your peers. SJS? That seems to be what you alluded to in the first post. I was there at some point, too. I thought about it very hard and almost took the plunge. I had to really look at myself in the mirror and ask if it was worth it.

18-20k a year? No. Being away from home? No. Flying in a company where I am just a number? No. Once I got to this point, I decided it wasn't worth it. Although I am still puttering around in Cessnas and Seminoles, I am enjoying my life a lot more than I would as an airline pilot and get paid much more. I get to stay at home every night and set my own schedule.

I guess the point I am trying to make is the same point that others have posted: Even though the pay and industry sucks, as long as they are hiring, there will be droves of people lined up at the door to get in. As long as this is true, nothing will ever change.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

It will continue to be viewed as complaining, rather than conversation about the industry. The trend continues.

My questions still stand though. . .do those individuals subject themselves by nature of federal regulations to the same or similar standards as professional pilots, not just 121 pilots.

 

[greaper007]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

What are you doing for a living Mojo? I got into this career for the eventual high pay, not SJS. I watched my Dad with his schedule and his pay and figured I should go for it. I figured if I payed my dues my day would come. I think most of us feel that way. What Firebird is saying, which has been a sneaking suspicion of mine, is that that day may not come. After the last round of furloughs, there weren't any pilot groups that successfully took back their pay. Now the majors are furloughing again, and their pay is lower than it was 10 years ago. I'm afraid that without a strong change of course from the feds in terms of allowing strikes, we won't ever get that pay back. If that's the case then these last few years of eating Mac'n'Cheese have been totally in vain. That's my biggest worry.

Which is why even though I agree that we knew our pay from the onset, I think we should push for higher pay. It looks like I'm going to be stuck in the right seat at Colgan for much longer than I intended. Who knows when I'll ever make the jump to the majors. In the meantime if the majors are going to push more flying on to the regionals we need to stand up and demand appropriate rates for that flying.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Then they'll start trying to subcontract out more Eagle flying.. and the cycle goes on, and on, etc..

Sorta like what NWA is doing with Compass and Mesaba. A lot of the gates I see -900s and 175s parked at in MEM used to have DC-9s parked there. That's not that big a deal....until you look at the board and see the destination ALSO used to be a DC-9 route. Someone asked me if Pinnacle was hurting b/c of all the flying we're losing to XJ and Compass. When I looked, we really haven't lost that much to them except on the -200 side in MSP. NWA mainline has taken it on the chin a LOT worse than we have. 9E never did MSP-ORD or other similar routes. Management has seen a way to cut costs by shifting mainline flying down to the regional level with the "large regional jets." Like it or not, that trend doesn't seem to be stopping.

 

[planesiscool]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I haven't been able to read this entire thread but I have some what of a different take, and perhaps I am wrong. I see all these small regionals folding up and losing money. I also hear about big airlines wanting to use bigger planes and less frequent flights because RJs are hard to make money with with such a high cost of fuel. If oil stays at $90-100/bbl then I don't see how, from a profitability stand point, airlines can continue to justify using large amounts of RJs. Then again this is the airlines and profitability has not been part of their decision making in recent years.

 

[greaper007]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I haven't been able to read this entire thread but I have some what of a different take, and perhaps I am wrong. I see all these small regionals folding up and losing money. I also hear about big airlines wanting to use bigger planes and less frequent flights because RJs are hard to make money with with such a high cost of fuel. If oil stays at $90-100/bbl then I don't see how, from a profitability stand point, airlines can continue to justify using large amounts of RJs. Then again this is the airlines and profitability has not been part of their decision making in recent years.

You're completely right plane, the only thing is a lot of these company's seem to be replacing mainline flying with LARGE rj's. Planes like the E170, 190 CRJ700,900. These planes are very close in size to yesterday's mainline planes like DC-9's and Fokker 100's. The only difference is the regional paycheck and benefits are not close in size.

 

[higney85]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

You're completely right plane, the only thing is a lot of these company's seem to be replacing mainline flying with LARGE rj's. Planes like the E170, 190 CRJ700,900. These planes are very close in size to yesterday's mainline planes like DC-9's and Fokker 100's. The only difference is the regional paycheck and benefits are not close in size.

I agree with this statement 100%. Just want to add to benefits, paycheck, JOB SECURITY, RETIREMENT, and a FUTURE.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

You can start with an OUPV - that's the entry level one anyway - that will allow you to run fishing charters.

But if you're in it for the money - you need to look at working cargo ships. There's no money in running passenger ships - plus you have to deal with more BS from the self-loading cargo.

Do these cargo ships have autopilot? I need two hands to hold my coffee cup AND my newspaper.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Another thing that you should probably be insulted/embarrased by is that I, who currently work for the same company you work for, will probably make as much, or more, as a first year ramp rat, than many FO's will make. When I was a ramp rat for XJT, we had an agent, who by working quite a bit of over-time (paid at 1.5 x payrate), made as much, or more than many XJT captains had made that year. I made more than guarantee pay for any first year FO, and could have made as much, or more, than a 2-3rd year FO, with a little over-time (and there was alway tons of over-time)

Its sad when the person loading the bags, and dumping the lavs, etc., are making as much, or more, than the people flying the airplanes.

That's a point, to be sure. Granted, I think the ramp agents are worth every penny. They do a thankless job in horrid weather at all hours of the day. Without them doing their job, I can't do my job.

I do agree though- the disparity in pay when you consider the level of training and responsibility is inadequate.

Pilots have been suckered in by the concept that they'll ascend to the "big leagues" quickly and just have to slug it out for a year or two on nothing.

Just goes to show- you're not paid what you're worth.. you're paid what you negotiate.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Sorta like what NWA is doing with Compass and Mesaba. A lot of the gates I see -900s and 175s parked at in MEM used to have DC-9s parked there. That's not that big a deal....until you look at the board and see the destination ALSO used to be a DC-9 route. Someone asked me if Pinnacle was hurting b/c of all the flying we're losing to XJ and Compass. When I looked, we really haven't lost that much to them except on the -200 side in MSP. NWA mainline has taken it on the chin a LOT worse than we have. 9E never did MSP-ORD or other similar routes. Management has seen a way to cut costs by shifting mainline flying down to the regional level with the "large regional jets." Like it or not, that trend doesn't seem to be stopping.

Exactly my point.

EQUAL WORK FOR EQUAL PAY. As long as the "get up and get out" mentality exists, we'll never make any ground in improving things for Regional pilots.