"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

What happened? All of the low-timers getting their upgrade mins now, or just a really small vacancy? What's the junior employee number for a CA bid now?

Nothing but ATL on the CA side, and they elected not to fill any secondaries in MEM, MSP or DTW. Upgrade went VERY senior since it appears a lot of the guys that were holding off for QoL reasons see the music stopping and are putting in for upgrade now while they can.
590 was the most junior CA on this last vacancy. For comparison, I'm 737.

 

[myron96]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Fortunetly, I decided to go back to Law enforcement. Making again what a 4th year regional captain makes with a much better QOL.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Ur in aviation now Charlie. Marry wealth.

Good article.

Marry wealth. You funny guy, Joe!

Thanks. Pass it around, if ya like.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The reason the secretary is paid more than twice what you make Charlie is simple.

No one grows up DREAMING of being a secretary.

There also are no "AllATP" 90 day courses for Secretaries, that play off of the perceived notion that being a Secretary is a job that hundreds if not thousands of people have grown up DREAMING of doing.

Food for thought.

That's really the point of the article, Surreal. First year FOs make what we make because so many of us either viewed it as "paying our dues" (therefore we must suffer) or were simply happy to be "living the dream."

I don't see that as acceptable. If we educate ourselves from within the ranks as to the fallacies of that school of thought, we can work on correcting it.

Nobody dreams of being a pilot because they think pilots make wages so low many of us qualify for food stamps. They see big money in the profession, and then wonder where the hell it went when they got here.
The shift towards heavier regional operations has gone everywhere but the pay rate.

I've heard the expression "A rising tide lifts all boats" in regards to pay more than once.

What water level is the tide? The top of the boats, or the bottom?

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I must say though that I'm a little surprised the "dreamers" amongst us haven't posted a reply.

I know it would mean taking a proactive approach to one's profession, but it appears very clear to me that certain members of the 121 community are willing to let others do the hard work while they ride the benefits wave.

An amazingly different structure of improving one's profession that a half century ago.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I must say though that I'm a little surprised the "dreamers" amongst us haven't posted a reply.

I know it would mean taking a proactive approach to one's profession, but it appears very clear to me that certain members of the 121 community are willing to let others do the hard work while they ride the benefits wave.

An amazingly different structure of improving one's profession that a half century ago.

Times have changed. Granted, there are freeloaders in every generation.

Somebody has to step up. Once things in the industry stall for a few years and a few people get stuck making less than $30/hr as a Regional FO things will start happening.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I won't hold my breath on that one. The one's who are passive right now, you really think they'll be moved to be vocal and aggressive when they realize their little "dream" world isn't materializing? You think they'll have the stamina required to actually develop pathways to instituting changes for the profession?

For some reason, I doubt it. They'll take their Aviation management degrees and go find a desk job where they can make more money, for well - less self-motivation.

I hope I'm wrong, but until "they" realize the failing dream that they have, they will never come onto the other team for the big victory. They'll watch from the side lines, as those of us who give a #### hit home runs for pay, benefits, QOL, and work rules.

I have a great analogy for this. I grew up in a middle class family, with health insurance courtesy of my father's employer. In my youth I saw how a quality health care system can, or well. . .how well a quality health care system can run in a "capitalistic" society. Fast forward to my time spent in the military. Considering I had the experience of having health care growing up, I know that we as service members were getting a raw deal. But to my peers who grew up in either a low income environment, and no health care, they thought the health care provided by the military was great - and nothing was wrong with it.

The shame is, that while there are people who are still willing to accept the conditions that exist, none of us who want to improve the environment we work in can succeed.

 

[berge7f9]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I think the regional industry is much different than the majors. With organizations such as Delta Connection and United Express being so diversified with regional affilliates, its very hard for a union or an individual to demand much in the way of qol or pay increases. Management will just threaten that their regional flying will be shifted to another regional by mainline. What needs to happen is for all the regionals to get together and have all their CBAs expire at the same time. Then things would improve.

But thats not the case as it is hard run into any pilot who has any positive impression on unions these days. I would believe that a few would have a more favorable impression of management rather than their own union.

 

[thehobbit]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

what should people be paid to fly and how much experience and hours should they have? if you pay people a lot of money starting out their would be a glut of pilots all going for the same positions. keeping training costs high and initial pay very low weeds out the people who can't make it doing this and in the long run will improve pilot pay as the number of commercial pilots has declined while air travel has gone up. another thing to think about is if all of the people on this board put up 10,000.00 dollars you would have enough money to buy 3 new 737-100 and start you own airline with experienced people to run it. but it will never happen as people don't pool their resources or voice.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

what should people be paid to fly and how much experience and hours should they have? if you pay people a lot of money starting out their would be a glut of pilots all going for the same positions. keeping training costs high and initial pay very low weeds out the people who can't make it doing this and in the long run will improve pilot pay as the number of commercial pilots has declined while air travel has gone up. another thing to think about is if all of the people on this board put up 10,000.00 dollars you would have enough money to buy 3 new 737-100 and start you own airline with experienced people to run it. but it will never happen as people don't pool their resources or voice.

Good theory but it hasn't followed through the way you think it would.

Pay has been low for decades, and folks keep showing up to the game.

Things will not change, they will only get worse. I've pretty much figured that much out looking at where things have gone with this industry, and where things will go.

 

[thehobbit]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

what do you mean by decades? according to the aopa since the 80's there has been a steady decline of the number of licensed commercial pilots while air traffic has increased. if training costs continue to increase like they are less and less people will be able to afford it or think it is a good idea to enter this market leaving more positions that need filling.

Again what do you think you should be paid for your hours, training, and ratings? not a the pay has been low so increase it, I'm talking about actual numbers.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

what do you mean by decades? according to the aopa there has been a steady decline of the number of licensed commercial pilots while air traffic has increased. if training costs continue to increase like they are less and less people will be able to afford it or think it is a good idea to enter this market leaving more positions that need filling.

Again what do you think you should be paid for your hours, training, and ratings? not a the pay has been low so increase it, I'm talking about actual numbers.

I'm talking about a union-negotiated BASE salary. The bottom end of the scale needs to be brought up. Essentially requiring junior pilots to live like herd animals isn't cutting it.

If FO pay is based off a percentage amount of the Captain's pay scale, there is potential for the low end of the scale to dip very very low.
If FO pay was, say, 60% of Captains pay, and a Captain make $50/hr. A Captain making $50K a year ($50/hr x 1000 pay hours) equates to a $30/hr - $30K a year FO pay rate.

Now, take out deductions for taxes, insurance, etc. Where does that leave you? Making somewhere in the mid-20's. Tack on a higher cost of living due to have to eat on the road, etc, and the bills rack up. Per diem will offset some of this, sure, but not all of it. Add that to the fact that an FO might not make 1000 pay hours in a year. If you make minimum guarantee a few months, you'll see your check really dwindle fast.

In other words, in order to ensure a relatively acceptable quality of life, FO pay needs to be higher in order to ensure a more consistent earnings expectation. Companies are essentially requiring FOs to work like whipped dogs in order to make ends meet- which comes at a sacrifice to quality of life.

Considering that FOs are also the first to be furloughed, etc, the risks are much higher financially. FOs are not "Captain's assistants" - they're a required part of a two seat aircrew. Sure, automation makes things simple enough most of the time, but there are plenty of times when a second human in the cockpit has prevented an accident, mishap, or violation.

Accepting serf-wages because we are "junior" or "entry level" is no longer an acceptable concept. I sincerely hope the airlines DO disillusion a good number of my peers. It would serve them right to feel the pain of reality.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

See I don't think pay is going to go up at the bottom end, and I think we're seeing less and less mainline jobs to try to attain.

I think what will happen is the quality of the applicants to the airlines will go down until we start crashing airplanes because anybody with more than a few brain cells to rub together will get out of flying airplanes for a living and do something that will provide them with a suitable income to their ability, education and intelligence levels. Right now I feel we have a decent amount of fairly well educated, fairly smart and fairly driven people flying airplanes around, but I think in another 10-15 years those folks will be gone and flying will be looked at more as something the idiot rich kids do. If your parents have a ton of cash to drop on flight training, and you can't really hack college, you'll go fly for a regional airline. That will happen until we start crashing airplanes because we've got a bunch of idiots doing these jobs, and then something will finally change.

But we'll have lost all the quality applicants by that point.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

what do you mean by decades? according to the aopa since the 80's there has been a steady decline of the number of licensed commercial pilots while air traffic has increased. if training costs continue to increase like they are less and less people will be able to afford it or think it is a good idea to enter this market leaving more positions that need filling.

You'd think that someone would figure that paying $60K for a job that only pays between $18-24K for the first couple of years isn't worth it, but there's a line around the corner. Marketing depts at flight schools are GOOD at what they do, and what they do is play up the romance of aviation and downplay the reality just long enough to get your check cashed. I know a lot of new FOs here that figure out very quickly that it's not like they were sold at "insert big flight school" when they signed up.

I think the reason there has been a decline in commercial pilots overall is b/c mom and pop flight schools can't stay in business. Used to, you could go to just about any airport in the country and there would be a flight school there. Economies of scale and the price of gas are causing those schools to shut down. There's a whopping TWO in the city of Memphis right now. So, there are more flight schools at the field I taught at in Texas as there are in the entire city where I live now. Back in the 80s, before ATP, Comair, etc got big, there would have been at least twice that many schools.

 

[thehobbit]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

See I don't think pay is going to go up at the bottom end, and I think we're seeing less and less mainline jobs to try to attain.

I think what will happen is the quality of the applicants to the airlines will go down until we start crashing airplanes because anybody with more than a few brain cells to rub together will get out of flying airplanes for a living and do something that will provide them with a suitable income to their ability, education and intelligence levels. Right now I feel we have a decent amount of fairly well educated, fairly smart and fairly driven people flying airplanes around, but I think in another 10-15 years those folks will be gone and flying will be looked at more as something the idiot rich kids do. If your parents have a ton of cash to drop on flight training, and you can't really hack college, you'll go fly for a regional airline. That will happen until we start crashing airplanes because we've got a bunch of idiots doing these jobs, and then something will finally change.

But we'll have lost all the quality applicants by that point.

oh come on just because your parents have money and you didn't go to college doesn't mean you are going to be an idiot. I don't think anybody who flies for a regional is in anyway an idiot or unqualified to do so and it wont change in the future. if your trained and the government signed off on your certs than you know what you are doing now and in the future. people always think they are better or smarter than everybody else. "well he only was able to fly because his daddy has a lot of money" doesn't say anything about the kids abilities. generally the poor are lazy, inept, and wasteful with their money.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

oh come on just because your parents have money and you didn't go to college doesn't mean you are going to be an idiot. I don't think anybody who flies for a regional is in anyway an idiot or unqualified to do so and it wont change in the future. if your trained and the government signed off on your certs than you know what you are doing now and in the future. people always think they are better or smarter than everybody else. "well he only was able to fly because his daddy has a lot of money" doesn't say anything about the kids abilities. generally the poor are lazy, inept, and wasteful with their money.

Idiots? Maybe not. Unqualified? I know several that don't belong at this level just yet. As for "the government signed your certs," give me 3 days, and I can get you a multi-engine rating without you ever flying in a twin. Only catch is you have to be in Arlington, TX and you have to go with XXX examiner. Why? B/c he does the exact same check ride every time. You can train someone to pass a check ride and get their cert, but that doesn't mean they're gonna be a safe pilot and qualified. I saw it NUMEROUS times when I was instructing. As for the poor being lazy, inept and wasteful with their money......same can be said of the rich that have never had to work a day in their life.

 

[kgflyboy]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

oh come on just because your parents have money and you didn't go to college doesn't mean you are going to be an idiot. I don't think anybody who flies for a regional is in anyway an idiot or unqualified to do so and it wont change in the future. if your trained and the government signed off on your certs than you know what you are doing now and in the future. people always think they are better or smarter than everybody else. "well he only was able to fly because his daddy has a lot of money" doesn't say anything about the kids abilities. generally the poor are lazy, inept, and wasteful with their money.

Am I understanding you correctly? You just disagreed with someone for making a general blanket statement about rich people, but at the end of your post you made an even more absurd blanket statement about poor people. Good one. :banghead:

 

[Mad Doggy Dog]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

oh come on just because your parents have money and you didn't go to college doesn't mean you are going to be an idiot. I don't think anybody who flies for a regional is in anyway an idiot or unqualified to do so and it wont change in the future. if your trained and the government signed off on your certs than you know what you are doing now and in the future. people always think they are better or smarter than everybody else. "well he only was able to fly because his daddy has a lot of money" doesn't say anything about the kids abilities. generally the poor are lazy, inept, and wasteful with their money.

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The above statement would make a good campaign speech for John McCain or George Bush!

 

[Mad Doggy Dog]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Good thead Charlie!


Since you handled the ship well the other day, you could always get you sailboat captain's license and drive that big yellow catamaran on Lake Lewisville to supplement your income.


Or at least get free beer!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Good thead Charlie!

Since you handled the ship well the other day, you could always get you sailboat captain's license and drive that big yellow catamaran on Lake Lewisville to supplement your income.

Or at least get free beer!

Ahh, yes. The Chamonix II, I believe she's called. There's something on one of my calendars about swimming on that thing next month. I'll have to look into it.

I'm glad you think I did well. I had a fairly dim idea of what I was doing and little more.

We should do it again sometime soon. I had a blast. If only the weather hadn't sent us back to port, eh?

What does it take to get a sailor's license? Is there money in it?