PUBNAT2- What states did you choose?

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RobertB said:
I understand that you weren't the one saying that you wanted to go to ATL, LAX, etc. There is no reason to 'clear the air here.' People need to know that if they are hired OTS, with no previous air traffic experience, then they will not be able to become fully certified at a super busy TRACON or a super busy airport. They need to get rid of the idea that they are capable of overcoming obstacles that other people before them could not overcome. Example: being OTS and thinking you will become fully certified at the Atlanta TRACON. It is not going to happen. ATL ATCT, ATL TRACON, LAX ATCT, etc. are places you want to stay away from when starting out. Start at smaller facilities and then bid up...
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I sense your own inadequacies are what is causing you to make these statements. Did it ever occur to you that some others may just be smarter and more capable than you?
 
Wyopoke79 said:
What you said was...



Considering, there isn't a single person hired from Pubnat2 yet....the above statement is ridiculous...But..Hey, you have a direct line to the "regional head" of something...and he's telling you that Pub3's are gonna be hired more than Pub2's because Pub2's are in the old fiscal years budget... Maybe your right...either way.. I know exactly where I stand.
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You are right, I should have used a better choice of words. No one has been hired for pub 2, I should have said selected for pepc. The point I was trying to make was that I was told more people will be selected for pub 3 because it is in a new FY (at least according to who I talked to). That being said, you are right, lets just let it be and leave it.
 
Ya'll argue too damn much. This isn't a size contest. Now, everyone hug and let's have smores.

remain_calm.jpg
 
Urge 80 said:
You are right, I should have used a better choice of words. No one has been hired for pub 2, I should have said selected for pepc. The point I was trying to make was that I was told more people will be selected for pub 3 because it is in a new FY (at least according to who I talked to). That being said, you are right, lets just let it be and leave it.
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I don't think you understand how federal staffing works. If an announcement cannot be funded with the current fiscal year, they do not discard applicants- they wait until funding is available. They wouldn't waste money doing ATSAT's and all this paperwork just to toss applications aside because of the way the fiscal year falls. They will simply fund PUBNAT2 with FY09...
 
RobertB said:
With all due respect Patrick, I hope for your sake you don't get LAX ATCT or ATL ATCT right off the bat. You need to start at a slightly less assiduously demanding environment.
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Well,

First off thank you for your overall confidence in me :sarcasm:. So I guess It would be easier to start out at a lower level Facility, learn the Airspace and all the nuiances of the tower or Tracon or whatever. Get to know everyone you work with, Learn how your team works, and bust your ass for maybe let's say 1 to 2 years until your CPC. Still bust your ass. Then give that up go to a "higher level" Facility. RELEARN your airspace and everything about your new facility. It doesn't make sense to me.

Not that switching facilities is a bad thing. But if your talking level 10-12 you don't want to swap facilities more than once in your entire career, Right? I appreciate your concern for my well being sir. But I can hold my own. I have already been in assiduosly demanding environments. I will get LAX ATCT or ATL ATCT and i'll let you know when I do. Maybe you know more than me, but i don't think a negative attitude is any way to embark on probably one of the most mentally demanding careers there are.
 
RobertB said:
Then heed the advice and statement because there is no way that someone should and/or needs to start out at the BUSIEST AIRPORT IN THE WORLD. Hartsfield is no joke and it takes years of experience to be able to 'check out' and/or work there. There is no reason why someone needs to start off there even if they were a former military controller, pilot, etc. Start somewhere that isn't as demanding and then 'bid up' if you want LAX, ATL, etc.
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I get it Robert. These Centers are seriously complicated and hard. But you can't say that it hasn't been done numerous times in the past. Hopeful ATC's have started at level 12's and checked out before. i'm sure a lot probably washed out too. If you read Mattson's book you'll see he started out at ZTL (ATL ARTCC). I think he ended up doing pretty damn good. So there is a reason to start out at the busiest airport in the world and that's because people are needed there more than ever. I know you know those facilities. But I don't think your attitude is conducive of success and acceleration. It's more defeatest than anything.
 
wynnpoe3 said:
Putting FL was a super long shot, as it seems many people are choosing that, and the fact the most of the senior controllers like to transfer down there so they can retire in FL.
"Elevator of Doom?" Go on...I must know.
Also, you seem surprised that I picked JAX. Any reason?
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The airport out here is great, but in a long shot. The elevator has been broken for a couple of weeks, and the damn doors will close on you too. I have been working out at Jax for a while as a ramp rat. The city, well there really isnt much out here. Just the beach and football games and that is about it.
 
Ammolite said:
I love your blanket statements -- you must be friends with those who claim "100% washout rates".

While it's certainly good advice to start at a lower facility, it's plain ignorant to state what an OTS is or isn't capable of, without knowing the training program they'd be thrust into, the people involved, etc. Do you think a CTI student would do better, just because he spent pissed away money to take some courses on aircraft engines, and identification, and airport management? Give me a break.

My 8-9 contacts include people from LAX, JFK, etc. and guess what? They're all OTS, and they're all certified, or in the process of certifying there successfully. I don't hear anyone shooting their own brains out, or opting to work at Walmart, so I'm not convinced. I'm a student of the sciences, and if it's one thing I hate, it's faulty statistics. You're plain wrong. Only on this forum do I hear of these horrendous monstrosities happening...and too many people blindly listen.

You're right in the sense that no one wants to go to a Tracon, but not for the reason you specified. They should steer clear, because everyone who works at one has God Complex, and thinks that they are the only person on the planet who can do the job.
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There are statistics out there that prove at some facilities that the success rate of OTS reaching full certification is ZERO. Is it really that hard to believe?

It isn't plain ignorant to make those comments because there have been many, many OTS people before you and there will be many, many after you that think they can make it at certain facilities, but will find out that they aren't ready to be an ATC at that air traffic control level that early in their careers.

Please don't even begin to compare JFK with LAX or ATL. They aren't even in the same league in terms of air traffic operations performed by their ATCs.

These 'monstrosities' exist for OTS applicants who have no air traffic experience at some facilities. It really isn't hard to believe. Just read some NATCA press release and you will discover information about it.

People don't want to go to TRACONs because that is one of the hardest if not the hardest ATC job to do. It isn't because they have a 'God Complex.' I would say that people who really think they can make it OTS with no previous air traffic experience are crazy to not look at the statistics of people with their same background who tried to go into the FAA before them. It is plain lunacy to think that you can just waltz in to ATL or A80 with no air traffic experience besides the OKC training and reach full certification. There have been many smart people before you that thought they could do it too and there are going to be many smart people after you that believe the same thing. You will find out soon enough if you are unfortunate enough to go to a place like ATL, ORD, A80, etc.
 
K-Dog said:
I sense your own inadequacies are what is causing you to make these statements. Did it ever occur to you that some others may just be smarter and more capable than you?
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Please get over yourself. There have been smarter people before me and there will be after me that really thought they could make it at certain facilities right out of the gate. It is not going to happen at certain facilities. Hell, the full certification rate for former civilian controllers, military controllers, pilots, whoever isn't great at some facilities.

You are in for a very short career if you are OTS and get a place like ATL or ORD or LAX.
 
ptrckturner said:
I get it Robert. These Centers are seriously complicated and hard. But you can't say that it hasn't been done numerous times in the past. Hopeful ATC's have started at level 12's and checked out before. i'm sure a lot probably washed out too. If you read Mattson's book you'll see he started out at ZTL (ATL ARTCC). I think he ended up doing pretty damn good. So there is a reason to start out at the busiest airport in the world and that's because people are needed there more than ever. I know you know those facilities. But I don't think your attitude is conducive of success and acceleration. It's more defeatest than anything.
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I never said anything about CENTERS! I mentioned ATL= airport, LAX= airport, A80= TRACON. Centers or up/down ATCTs are the best places to start out for newly hired controllers, not some of the world's busiest airports!

There is a HUGE difference from working at ZTL compared to A80 or ATL so his book is pointless in this conversation.

People should bid up to those facilities when they have enough experience from working with the FAA...
 
RobertB said:
There are statistics out there that prove at some facilities that the success rate of OTS reaching full certification is ZERO. Is it really that hard to believe?

It isn't plain ignorant to make those comments because there have been many, many OTS people before you and there will be many, many after you that think they can make it at certain facilities, but will find out that they aren't ready to be an ATC at that air traffic control level that early in their careers.

Please don't even begin to compare JFK with LAX or ATL. They aren't even in the same league in terms of air traffic operations performed by their ATCs.

These 'monstrosities' exist for OTS applicants who have no air traffic experience at some facilities. It really isn't hard to believe. Just read some NATCA press release and you will discover information about it.

People don't want to go to TRACONs because that is one of the hardest if not the hardest ATC job to do. It isn't because they have a 'God Complex.' I would say that people who really think they can make it OTS with no previous air traffic experience are crazy to not look at the statistics of people with their same background who tried to go into the FAA before them. It is plain lunacy to think that you can just waltz in to ATL or A80 with no air traffic experience besides the OKC training and reach full certification. There have been many smart people before you that thought they could do it too and there are going to be many smart people after you that believe the same thing. You will find out soon enough if you are unfortunate enough to go to a place like ATL, ORD, A80, etc.
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1. I'm curious, Robert, where do/did (lol) you work? If you say a TRACON facility, then my hypothesis will only be verified. All TRACON controllers think that they're special snowflakes.

2. Statistics; courtesy of Airnav:

LAX: Aircraft operations: avg 1388/day
JFK: Aircraft operations: avg 1348/day

Are you really going to tell me that 40 planes a day difference, split among several different controllers (even if 10 controllers present, that would mean each got only 4 more per day) makes it in an "entirely different league"? Comical.
 
ptrckturner said:
Well,

First off thank you for your overall confidence in me :sarcasm:. So I guess It would be easier to start out at a lower level Facility, learn the Airspace and all the nuiances of the tower or Tracon or whatever. Get to know everyone you work with, Learn how your team works, and bust your ass for maybe let's say 1 to 2 years until your CPC. Still bust your ass. Then give that up go to a "higher level" Facility. RELEARN your airspace and everything about your new facility. It doesn't make sense to me.

Not that switching facilities is a bad thing. But if your talking level 10-12 you don't want to swap facilities more than once in your entire career, Right? I appreciate your concern for my well being sir. But I can hold my own. I have already been in assiduosly demanding environments. I will get LAX ATCT or ATL ATCT and i'll let you know when I do. Maybe you know more than me, but i don't think a negative attitude is any way to embark on probably one of the most mentally demanding careers there are.
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FYI: LAX has one of the best training programs in the country, and you'd be luckier to go there than some tower in the middle of nowhere that lands two Cessnas a week, or some crappy center in Ohio where they couldn't get around to training you for three years.
 
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