Preventing fatigue call abuse

You're assuming the abuse causes harm and therefore needs to be mitigated, but that's not in evidence.

Well, I mean, I think it's obvious that paying people for not working falls under the heading of "harm" for a business. But, in any case, you're making the case that it doesn't cause harm and I can't see that you've presented any evidence for that, past a simple assertion.

If you were in charge of this, how would you determine what constitutes "harm"?
 
I have plenty of problems with the big hats around here, but they do this stuff right. I've used it once, legit circumstances, got paid, never heard another word about it.

Now, if we could do something about the hectoring phone calls for using sick leave...
I didn’t on the night you saw me and said “dude, you look beat up!”
 
PTO is kind of a weird term in this industry because I feel like it gives the impression that it's the same kind of PTO that a lot of office workers have, which from anecdotal evidence seems to work like "I'm using PTO to take Tuesday off" and that's that. Somewhat understandably, aviation doesn't really work that like that, so I wish they'd just call it something else. I've never had any kind of time off or drop request that wasn't so dependent on staffing/reserve levels that I was really able to use it with any regularity. The last time was either during COVID when everyone was overstaffed or during early 2021 when I could regularly drop trips. To put it succinctly, if I can't use it freely as PTO, don't call it PTO. That said, I'm not sure in this hypothetical scenario what the stipulations for using it would be.

I know that doesn't really answer the question.
This, coming from a guy who doesn't see the need for semantics.

It's not complicated. At my operation, PTO is measured in days and can be used for anything. And it can be run into the negative. And you can still take time off even after you've run into the negative, you just stop getting paid after a while. Requests for PTO are virtually never denied, we just pay people bonuses to voluntarily work on days off if we get understaffed rather than deny PTO. It's literally the most employee-friendly system I've ever seen, in this regard.

Meanwhile some people on the the Internet are acting like I'm the Grinch who stole Christmas simply because I asked a question about how to keep people honest.
 
I'm sorry, what?

The post I was replying to basically said pilots who would abuse a fatigue policy would probably do something worth firing for in another area, maybe implying the problem would solve itself.

I was drawing a distinction between the two issues. Why can't we have a system that minimizes abuse, and why can't we mentor pilots in a way so they don't do things worthy of being fired? If it comes to that, I'll do what I have to do, but I'd prefer for everyone do their jobs well and be happy doing them.
 
This, coming from a guy who doesn't see the need for semantics.

It's not complicated. At my operation, PTO is measured in days and can be used for anything. And it can be run into the negative. And you can still take time off even after you've run into the negative, you just stop getting paid after a while. Requests for PTO are virtually never denied, we just pay people bonuses to voluntarily work on days off if we get understaffed rather than deny PTO. It's literally the most employee-friendly system I've ever seen, in this regard.

Meanwhile some people on the the Internet are acting like I'm the Grinch who stole Christmas simply because I asked a question about how to keep people honest.

Where I’m at, it’s pretty simple. Every 2 week pay period, I earn 8 hours of annual leave and 4 hours of sick leave. There is also award leave that can be given for meritorious work. Sick leave is only for sick related stuff: sick, family member sick, have to go to an appointment, fsrigued, whatever. Annual/award leave is for taking a standard 8 hour shift off, but can be used fr anything, including if you are sick and if you don’t want to burn sick leave for it. For sick leave purposes, one can take 8 hours sick leave, or 8 hours of any other leave, or combine the two.

Regardless, if you aren’t going to show up for shift, your 8 hours time has to be accounted for by some form of leave. Seems simple enough. Never had an issue with it.
 
The post I was replying to basically said pilots who would abuse a fatigue policy would probably do something worth firing for in another area, maybe implying the problem would solve itself.

I disagree with this contention. There are people who simply think certain rules don’t apply to them. For example, someone might routinely not stop at stop signs when they don’t see any other cars around,, but that doesn’t automatically mean they would ever go drive drunk. Same with pilots, someone may abuse sick leave policy all day, but will still always flly 250 or less below 10K religiously.

Bottom line is, if we want to call ourselves professionals, then that includes following policies we don’t personally like or don’t personally agree with. Or otherwise, work to change them.
 
This, coming from a guy who doesn't see the need for semantics.

It's not complicated. At my operation, PTO is measured in days and can be used for anything. And it can be run into the negative. And you can still take time off even after you've run into the negative, you just stop getting paid after a while. Requests for PTO are virtually never denied, we just pay people bonuses to voluntarily work on days off if we get understaffed rather than deny PTO. It's literally the most employee-friendly system I've ever seen, in this regard.

Meanwhile some people on the the Internet are acting like I'm the Grinch who stole Christmas simply because I asked a question about how to keep people honest.
Chill.

I’ve only ever worked 91 and 121, the PTO system you’re describing basically doesn’t exist at the airlines.
 
Interesting parallels to this thread:

I see the parallels.

I also must say our operation is about as far from SkyWest as can be.

I'm sorry you're in the situation you're in and I hope you're able to get to a better place soon.
 
Chill.

I’ve only ever worked 91 and 121, the PTO system you’re describing basically doesn’t exist at the airlines.

Which is why it's kind of aggravating to be looking for ways to improve a system and be criticized by someone who doesn't actually understand what we're dealing with.

This is another topic, is this place calling sick time "PTO"? Because that's a whole other thing I could bust a blood vessel about. It's either sick time or it's PTO.

Try to keep an open mind. That's all.
 
I'd say that bigger picture, this sort of thing, and personally having to deal with it, is why they pay you the bigger bucks in your newest management role. People issues aren't easy, and I'd submit that they are paying you, quite literally, to deal with this kind of thing (and also to be able to explain it to your non-pilot management/directors/VP/etc). I think it is a good thing that you are asking these questions. I think that it is well within your job description (at least as you previously described it), and the company's right, to follow up on these events. I'd just say that in my experience with these types of things (in a different industry), showing your employees that you trust them to be adults is the first rule of the management honor code. The folks who can't be trusted will pretty easily become apparent. And you will figure this out some other way than via fatigue calls (i.e. that won't be the only part of their professional existence that comes into question). Just my 2C, probably worth less than that today :)
 
you trust them to be adults is the first rule of the management honor code. The folks who can't be trusted will pretty easily become apparent.

Right, and abusing fatigue calls in the most obvious and transparent way would fall under the heading of "can't be trusted", yes? And then they get fired for cause. I'm just not seeing the Human Rights issue on this one. They call it "work" for a reason. Outside of cartoons or motivational speeches, no one wants to go to work. But sometimes you have to do stuff you don't want to do. I thought we all learned this in Kindergarten.
 
Right, and abusing fatigue calls in the most obvious and transparent way would fall under the heading of "can't be trusted", yes? And then they get fired for cause. I'm just not seeing the Human Rights issue on this one. They call it "work" for a reason. Outside of cartoons or motivational speeches, no one wants to go to work. But sometimes you have to do stuff you don't want to do. I thought we all learned this in Kindergarten.

Fair enough. If it is wholly obvious that someone is abusing the system, that is a different story. Just saying that what might seem suspicious on paper, may have another, better explanation. And it might also be pretty difficult to prove that the person in question wasn't "fatigued", even due to their own choices, other than in pretty blatant scenarios. Pilot plans their return from a personal trip poorly, and isn't fit for duty early the next day? Yeah, that is bad planning, and it is worth a phone call from dad to explain that they need to plan better. But going after their character by saying that they actually weren't fatigued, and are lying about it, without pretty solid proof, isn't a good move in my opinion. Not that this is what JRH was saying or suggesting, but just as a general discussion point. Now if in that scenario, there was convincing evidence to say that they weren't fatigued, obviously whole different ball of wax. This is all to say that in aviation, we exist in a slightly different "work" world, where we are obligated to report if not fit for duty, even if the cause of that scenario was within our control.
 
Fair enough. If it is wholly obvious that someone is abusing the system, that is a different story. Just saying that what might seem suspicious on paper, may have another, better explanation. And it might also be pretty difficult to prove that the person in question wasn't "fatigued", even due to their own choices, other than in pretty blatant scenarios. Pilot plans their return from a personal trip poorly, and isn't fit for duty early the next day? Yeah, that is bad planning, and it is worth a phone call from dad to explain that they need to plan better. But going after their character by saying that they actually weren't fatigued, and are lying about it, without pretty solid proof, isn't a good move in my opinion. Not that this is what JRH was saying or suggesting, but just as a general discussion point. Now if in that scenario, there was convincing evidence to say that they weren't fatigued, obviously whole different ball of wax. This is all to say that in aviation, we exist in a slightly different "work" world, where we are obligated to report if not fit for duty, even if the cause of that scenario was within our control.

Its and easy call for me. Whether fatigued, sick, or just wanting the day off; there is 8 hours of leave via the appropriate category, that I have to take to do it. Shouldn’t be that difficult if the operation was structured that way.
 
I bet if you were to graph this out, I bet 10% of the guys have 90% of the fatigue calls. That Pareto distribution things strikes again, you could probably even do more crazy math to identify potential freeloaders and mooches - don't do this it's a waste of your life. You're seldom going to get pilots to admit that there are other pilots who abuse the sick-call/fatigue/whatever system. Probably because most people have worked for such terrible places that we don't want to risk any reduction in the ability to drop trips/call in/whatever when we feel crappy. Also, admitting that some people who are pilots are kind of sucky freeloaders feels like betrayal.

Still, some people kind of suck - that's just how it's going to be. Also, chances are that even the guys who kind of suck will use a system like a fatigue call system how it's supposed to occasionally, so even if they are sucky, the system is still serving it's purpose. I would look at this not like it's something that is going to "hurt" the company if it's abused, but as something that is a sort of insurance to keep sleepy pilots out from behind the yoke. Change your mindset if you can.

A no-fault fatigue call system is a money saver in the long run if it prevents even one airplane from being flown into a mountain. In the short run, keeping sleepy pilots out of the cockpit is insurance that keeps the FAA from calling your office (you're a DO, right? Do you want to explain to your POI why Chronically-Tired Terry decided to turn the wrong way on the departure?). Finally, don't think about it like you're losing anything - you're not losing anything by pilots fatigue calling erroneously if occasionally - you're actually getting over on the fake-fatigue caller guys. Lemme explain.

See, those guys who really abuse the system often times think they're smarter than everyone else. They're usually not, but I digress. They think they're so clever when they plan a vacation and fatigue call before coming back on or something like that. "Hah, I got an extra day of paid vacation, chumps!" If you can tolerate the guy in the rest of the operation, then that "victory" where he got over on you is a major benefit to the guy and really strokes his ego. If you can't tolerate that guy, think, "well, I just paid a few hundred dollars to not have to deal with that dumbass until he's back on shift." Either way, it's a benefit. This is now a pilot that is less likely to be looking for a job. Conversely, if the guy uses a fatigue call to go to a job interview and gets the job, well, then he's someone else's problem.

Regardless, look on the fatigue call system as insurance against the FAA for your own sanity and as a benefit to your pilots. I would consider it a sunk cost and move on. When it comes to the individual people and the personal interactions that get irritating when you're pretty sure that a pilot is trying to get over on you, don't look at it like "he got over on me" - look at it like, "heh, that guy thinks he's so smart and thinks he's playing me, meanwhile he's not out trying to find a job and his ass is back in the schedule on Monday." Regardless, if you can re-frame the problem it might help any irritation that comes up. At least that's the sort of thing I do when I deal with irritating people in the workplace.

If you begin to suspect that some percentage of your staff are freeloading asshats in excess of 10-20% (that is to say fatigue calls are not Pareto Distributed), it stands to reason that you need to change how you're hiring because you are probably • up. In that case, the problem really lies in hiring in my opinion and you've gotta figure out a strategy to identify potential free-loaders before they enter the organization, but as long as there aren't seemingly abnormal fatigue calls from greater than 10-20% of the crewmembers, I'd chock it up to the typical distribution of human foolishness, consider it a sunk cost, and move on.

This is another topic, is this place calling sick time "PTO"? Because that's a whole other thing I could bust a blood vessel about. It's either sick time or it's PTO.
Not that it's an airline, but where I work now, PTO all comes from the same bank - it's kind of awesome actually now that I work from home. My wife's PTO at the hospital works the same, but when she's sick she has the option to use PTO or just take the day off without pay. At Big Fortune 50 Inc we had a system for PTO for the pilots that was effectively outside the normal HR system, and had earned PTO and sick pay.

Different sorts of organizations work in wildly different ways, I wouldn't get worked up about it.
 
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Its and easy call for me. Whether fatigued, sick, or just wanting the day off; there is 8 hours of leave via the appropriate category, that I have to take to do it. Shouldn’t be that difficult if the operation was structured that way.

Yeah, and if that is the way it is structured, that's how it should be done for sure. But I'm also assuming these fatigue calls are legit, and appropriately categorized. Now if you start talking about repeat callers, there is more of a story to get to the bottom of. Are they perpetually bad planners? Is there an ops impact that continues to throw chaos into their schedule (which would probably be unlikely if we are talking about statistically above average callers)? Or are they legitimately misusing this category of "leave"? Which is obviously why a company will follow up, via whatever means they have established to formally validate these incidents.
 
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