Preventing fatigue call abuse

[Boris Badenov]

it might also be pretty difficult to prove that the person in question wasn't "fatigued",

It wasn't obvious to me that we were talking about what's easy to prove. I leave that to the lawyers. But as a question of how a society or, in this case, profession, should function, it is absolutely farcical to suggest that every fatigue call is legitimate, or that there's no harm being done by simply letting the grifters grift. That's how you get a grifter in the oval office. Oh, heavens, too late. *slow clap for "no harm"*

 

[Screaming_Emu]

This, coming from a guy who doesn't see the need for semantics.

It's not complicated. At my operation, PTO is measured in days and can be used for anything. And it can be run into the negative. And you can still take time off even after you've run into the negative, you just stop getting paid after a while. Requests for PTO are virtually never denied, we just pay people bonuses to voluntarily work on days off if we get understaffed rather than deny PTO. It's literally the most employee-friendly system I've ever seen, in this regard.

Meanwhile some people on the the Internet are acting like I'm the Grinch who stole Christmas simply because I asked a question about how to keep people honest.

That sounds great.

That said, the fatigue program should be a sacred program from both the management side and the pilot side.

If you uncover blatant abuse, by all means burn the witch. But if you want to make it punitive in any way, it could cost you an airplane.

 

[///AMG]

It wasn't obvious to me that we were talking about what's easy to prove. I leave that to the lawyers. But as a question of how a society or, in this case, profession, should function, it is absolutely farcical to suggest that every fatigue call is legitimate, or that there's no harm being done by simply letting the grifters grift. That's how you get a grifter in the oval office. Oh, heavens, too late. *slow clap for "no harm"*

Of course they all aren't. But given the examples that JRH listed, at least initially, based on the information given, I wouldn't immediately jump to that conclusion. I guess that was my point. Additional info provided that these folks are part of a minority of folks who are creating a problem, would tend to support a different conclusion as you say.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Speaking of fatigue calls, oh man how did she even pull this off? I’m more impressed than shocked…

Virgin Atlantic pilot's disturbing secret leads to safety concerns

Airlines limit pilot flight hours to prevent fatigue and ensure the highest levels of safely. But one pilot for Virgin Atlantic has raised significant safety concerns due to the potential for pilot fatigue.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[phill1174]

Fatigue calls should be a no-jeopardy, no-questions-asked policy in terms of questioning the fatigue call. The company should track them to see if there are trends or any red flags with regard to scheduling practices.

This full stop! I understand the need for the subsequent report, and I have opinions on how intricate it is at my shop but when sick time possibly being deducted comes into play can you really say it’s not punitive?

I won’t delve too much into details on here but it’s frustrating seeing a process that’s supposed to uphold safety do the opposite a lot of times. It also doesn’t help our schedules either by not calling out fatigued or at least filing an informational fatigue report.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This full stop! I understand the need for the subsequent report, and I have opinions on how intricate it is at my shop but when sick time possibly being deducted comes into play can you really say it’s not punitive?

I don’t mind the sick bank being dinged if it’s determined to be a “you” problem rather than a Company problem, as long as that process has good participation from a pilot advocate. I joke about the fatigue board needing a chair from the safety department, a zealous pilot advocate and the most indifferent flight ops management representative you can find, except that’s not a joke.

 

[BobDDuck]

Like most things, a very small percentage of pilots make it difficult to easily run a trust but verify type program.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Like most things, a very small percentage of pilots make it difficult to easily run a trust but verify type program.

“Those” pilots, again, and in my experience, almost universally wind up doing something else to blow their own stuff away.

 

[🦈💜]

Interestingly, my shop used to have a pretty robust fatigue response, which was something to the effect of "Thank you for making the responsible choice. We've gone ahead and pulled the flying off your schedule; let us know when you're recovered and ready to resume."

Now it's "*sigh* Ok, we've pulled you off that trip. You have a report time in exactly 10 hours for 14+ hours of flying."

 

[Richman]

Discussions like these make me despise pilots…this ain’t rocket surgery, and only leads to slippery slopes/less safe operations.

Previous airline I worked for would “holistically look” at sick/fatigue calls if you were in the flow program. F that nonsense

Want to reduce fatigue calls? Stop abusing your people. That means stop hiring minimum wage people to execute "operational control" over people who operate multi-million dollar equipment and are the source of your revenue.

It's not rocket surgery.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Interestingly, my shop used to have a pretty robust fatigue response, which was something to the effect of "Thank you for making the responsible choice. We've gone ahead and pulled the flying off your schedule; let us know when you're recovered and ready to resume."

Now it's "*sigh* Ok, we've pulled you off that trip. You have a report time in exactly 10 hours for 14+ hours of flying."

I mean, if you aren’t rested and ready with the intervening minimum rest, you just rinse and repeat the process, too.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Want to reduce fatigue calls? Stop abusing your people. That means stop hiring minimum wage people to execute "operational control" over people who operate multi-million dollar equipment and are the source of your revenue.

It's not rocket surgery.

And bring it ALL in-house.

 

[Richman]

And bring it ALL in-house.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.....attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion....I've seen T beams glitter in the darkness near Tannhauser Gate.

 

[killbilly]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.....attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion....I've seen T beams glitter in the darkness near Tannhauser Gate.

C-beams.

C. Beams.

 

[jrh]

when sick time possibly being deducted comes into play can you really say it’s not punitive?

I'd like to unpack this a little more.

How would sick time being deducted for a fatigue call which is personal in nature (not caused by company operations) be different from a sick call for being sick?

In other words, how is using sick time for a fatigue call punitive, but sick time for a sick call is not punitive?

To me they seem the same. Both are unplanned. Both are outside the control of the company. Both relate to fitness for flight.

I honestly want to hear an opposing argument though.

 

[DE727UPS]

The difference is where I used to work you get paid for sick time you don't use every November. There is a base number you take forward and anything above that you get paid out. Can be a pretty big check. So, taking money from my pocket is punitive if that's what happens at the end of a FAT call. With your operation, JRH will be the decider of whether the call is FAT or SIK. Big airlines have a committee that include union reps and company reps. The other thing that's punitive is that where I worked you can only have 5 SIK calls a year or you get a call from management the 6th time. This is 6 occurrences, not number of days taken per occurrence. One could say it's punitive when management enquires about fitness for flight issues. I always felt like SIK days should have been personal time off days as well. People used them that way when there were no other options. But that would look like a concession to the union and we want something in return. Thus, not gonna happen.

 

[ASpilot2be]

The difference is where I used to work you get paid for sick time you don't use every November. There is a base number you take forward and anything above that you get paid out. Can be a pretty big check. So, taking money from my pocket is punitive if that's what happens at the end of a FAT call. With your operation, JRH will be the decider of whether the call is FAT or SIK. Big airlines have a committee that include union reps and company reps. The other thing that's punitive is that where I worked you can only have 5 SIK calls a year or you get a call from management the 6th time. This is 6 occurrences, not number of days taken per occurrence. One could say it's punitive when management enquires about fitness for flight issues. I always felt like SIK days should have been personal time off days as well. People used them that way when there were no other options. But that would look like a concession to the union and we want something in return. Thus, not gonna happen.

Getting paid for unused sick days seems like it's rewarding people to fly sick.

 

[DE727UPS]

I guess it does. And that was often a point of discussion. I was a pretty healthy guy and didn't need to worry about taking days for a spouse or kids. If I had a cold and got over it to the point my ears would clear I'd go fly. But if the ears wouldn't clear then no way. I think I've only had one cold like that since I retired and that was during Covid.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Getting paid for unused sick days seems like it's rewarding people to fly sick.

Spirit has a provision by which you get paid your bank at retirement, up to 500 hours or something like that. I know people who wouldn’t take any sick leave there for that reason. The language was very generous and we pretty fiercely resisted management asking about people using it.

I’m glad that we have a rule against “good faith” inquiries for pilots with less than 50 hours per annum of sick leave use, at least.

 

[JordanD]

I’m glad that we have a rule against “good faith” inquiries for pilots with less than 50 hours per annum of sick leave use, at least.

Depending what fleet you're on though, I could see that racking up pretty easily. Two missed widebody trips in a year and you're getting a phone call.