SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Never flown a 737 or 747, so don't know about those, but I know on the 717, DH is for CAT II/III approaches, and MDA/DA is for everything else. DH uses radio altitude and MDA/DA uses the altimeter.
Pressing "Start" on the timer when shooting an ILS
- Thread starter kiloalpha
- Start date
Never flown a 737 or 747, so don't know about those, but I know on the 717, DH is for CAT II/III approaches, and MDA/DA is for everything else. DH uses radio altitude and MDA/DA uses the altimeter.
I flew both civilian and military world, and even in the cargo operations I was in prior to the military, they trained it that way. Likely it may vary between 135 operations, and it sounds like its not even allowed in 121 ops (which is fine). Just seems like it varies in the civil world whether its done or not, unless of course it's not allowed by regulation or OpsSpec.
In your case Martin, is it even an option to try? Or are you regulatorly bound to go around in any case? If that is the case, then it wouldnt matter what anyone wanted to do, if they did anything other than go missed, they'd be breaking company regs.
inigo88
Composite-lover
Ahh duh that makes sense, thanks! I think some of them are labeled DH/MDA, and others are labeled Mins: Radio/Baro (which makes more sense, barometric vs. radio altimeter).
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
No, you have to check all the radios in a paranoid panic and check the altimeter setting a SECOND time, also in a panic or YOU'RE FIRED!
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
We don't have anything like that. We have an altimeter bug that we set to the appropriate minimums (just there as a reference, and doesn't tie into the autopilot), and an altitude preselect window that works like most other aircraft. Oh, and there's also an RA bug that we set for Cat II/III approaches, but that also doesn't tie into anything.
While I think the primary concern here is the potential for CRM breakdown, a side issue is the flight mode changes (which I've mentioned previously). If you're coming down the ILS and the glideslope fails, our FMA goes from "G/S LOC" to "
Plenty of gas, not on fire, just hit the go-around switches and try again. No, you won't win any "Billy Badass" points, but nobody keeps score anyway. Most conservative wins.
Which I don't buy. If a crew can't brief anything and follow what was briefed or don't have the SA to, that's not a fault of CRM......
Which I can totally buy. Never try and salvage a bad or unstable approach, whether VMC or IMC. No need to be dorking around with anything that takes more than 2 secs or so to process. In this case, I fully agree, go around and handle the problem at altitude or climbing away.
Why you guys seem to think this is some sort of "billy badass" is beyond me. It's normal ops where I come from, nothing that takes any mad skills in any normal situation. Nothing to do with anything badass. Your idea of risk and my idea of risk are simply different.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Fair enough, but...
I used to do this kind of stuff single-pilot in 402s, where I could get all Quickie McFasthands when I needed to without keeping other crewmembers in the loop. Like I said, it's not a big deal, and I think any competent pilot can do it. It's just a conservative culture in 121.
Which is also fair, because I agree with you fully that with some of the automated aircraft, dorking around inputting numbers down low is completely unsafe, and a missed is indeed the best option......it's not like the 402 or the PA-31 where you just memorize a new number for MDA. Thats totally understandable. And, that even with being allowed to do it legally; with many 121 ops not being allowed to do it, and that's completely understandable too; especially if it isn't normally done. Fully understand that.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
z987k
Well-Known Member
Per the SOP - "In a paranoid panic, do seventy things NOW and remember to start time, as you cross the FAF. Don't forget to put the flaps down, then back up, gear down, flaps down again."No, you have to check all the radios in a paranoid panic and check the altimeter setting a SECOND time, also in a panic or YOU'RE FIRED!
I'm actually not joking about the second part either.
Roll inverted and pull.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
is that due to the made up flap and gear speeds?
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Make sure you shut an engine down and find a super cell. Oh, and when parking, the ladder better be on the hooks before the props stop spinning or YOU'RE FIRED!
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
MikeD Both operations I've been at, the first was 135 commuter rules being rolled into 121, and always 2 pilots, and the present shop, which is a world-wide 121 operation that operates domestic, flag and supplemental with 2-4 pilots.
In both operations, for the last 14 years, full deflection or loss of signal was a cause for go around. Not sure if that's regulator by the CFR, policy by the 8900 or industry best-practice.
In both operations, for the last 14 years, full deflection or loss of signal was a cause for go around. Not sure if that's regulator by the CFR, policy by the 8900 or industry best-practice.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Not really. I mean, you can have flaps down(approach) and then put the gear down. They just wanted flaps up at the FAF, regardless of the configuration prior. For no actual reason. Problem was, with a made up gear speed of 120, real one is 150, you need flaps to get that slow if you're bringing any energy with you down hill. So it ended up going flaps approach, flaps up, gear down, flaps down. For no reason at all but some moron that made it up to make himself feel powerful or something.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
120 was your gear speed at Amflight?! It's 153 in our Chieftains! So they make you use flaps to slow down to an arbitrary speed of 120?! This makes my head hurt... Why wouldn't you just make an airplane specific "speed card" where you could review the speeds for each airplane you're in? That'd be my solution as opposed to make everything conform to the lowest airplane. At Martex even, in the Caravan - and we had 50 of them or so, we were told to learn our Caravan's specifics. Mine had an upgross kit, others were 600HP vans... I don't get not flying the airplane as it's supposed to be flown.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Wow! Did I miss something? 140 posts arguing about whether to start the timer on an ILS. I'm sure somewhere along the way someone must have pointed out, if nothing else, that a SOP of hitting the timer whether it's needed or not when crossing a FAF means less likelihood of forgetting it on those approaches where you need it.
Sort of like signalling for a turn on an empty street at 3 am. Not necessary but allows brain power to be used for more pressing things. (I actually once got into an argument with someone who said he didn't because it was stupid. When I rode with him, turned out he never signaled for turns anyway.)
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's been considered, and discarded as being less important than making sure we stick to the policy of "brief only what you're actually going to do, and only do what you brief." Plenty of study has gone into this, and the airlines all stick to the same policy. I think that says something.
I agree. And that can include multiple contingencies in the same brief. Which is why it's safe in military operations. So long as it's briefed and understood, whatever the plan, then its good to go in terms of everyone being on the same page; hence the reason for a brief. If anything is not understood, then something else needs to be briefed.