Pressing "Start" on the timer when shooting an ILS

Yeah, I've heard the "missed approach protected area" argument enough to make me puke. Either way, if I were really concerned, there's always the MSA that you could use.

All the approaches I've seen that have tight obstacles have either high MDAs and/or DME or Radar required. I have a really hard time believing that any timing only approach would have anything remotely close to run into. Unless someone can prove me wrong. ;)
 
msmspilot said:
Time everything and you don't forget on that NDB in the middle of nowhere. Not that I'd ever have that problem...:def:

Also, if you have a problem with the GS, and you decide to go missed, where do you start your turn? The missed approach protected airspace is predicated on you starting your turn at the missed approach point (or later in some cases). If you're a mile short of that point, there could be obstructions in your path.

I realize you have a GPS, but some of us don't have that luxury. And some of us trained with it, and then started flying planes that don't have them. Just because you have luxury equipment now doesn't mean you don't train good procedures for the day you don't have it or it quits. I mean, GPS units never fail, right?:rolleyes:
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Start the turn when you cross the localizer antenna.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.
 
I dont see why you wouldnt time it. You're not hurting anything and just adding one more piece of data that might be useful, increase SA and leaving another potential option for you.
 
rframe said:
I dont see why you wouldnt time it. You're not hurting anything and just adding one more piece of data that might be useful, increase SA and leaving another potential option for you.
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Because you're single pilot IMC in turbulence with no autopilot. The time is started at a highly workloaded and critical part of the approach and you are taking your hand off of something else to push the button. And you're taking your eyes off of what matters to make sure the timer actually started.
 
Dugie8 said:
Has anyone ever actually gone from an ILS to the LOC in training or "real life"? I never have, never thought to try it in the sim either. Seems to me the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack to even worry about it. Going missed is not an emergency event nor cause for any kind of certificate action.
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About 6 or so times that I can remember.

Why does everyone treat this like it's some sort of cosmic, rocket science thing to do? Obviously, if you're already below MDA on your way to a DH or you don't have the WX for it, you're going to go missed. But if you're in the intermediate segment before the FAF, or even a little after the FAF and still have a ways to go, why do people find it so difficult to make the transition?

I personally don't want to stay in IMC/icing/thunderstorms, etc, any more than I have to. Why some people would like to do a missed back into that stuff to come around for another pass when they didn't need to, or weren't required to by some regulation or OpsSpec, Ill never understand.
 
kiloalpha said:
This is pretty much the response I had expected... One of the old timer's my student flies with drilled this into him and I set him straight... Looks like I have another debate coming soon.
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Set him straight?
 
flyoverny said:
Because you're single pilot IMC in turbulence with no autopilot. The time is started at a highly workloaded and critical part of the approach and you are taking your hand off of something else to push the button. And you're taking your eyes off of what matters to make sure the timer actually started.
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Oh my god......taking one hand off something else to push a button to start a clock. Wow, that seriously sucks some SA there. :rolleyes: I mean, really? What kind of candyass pilots do we have who can't start a timer when everything else is working. You DO realize that pilots at one time actually flew single pilot in IMC with no autopilot......and survived?? *gasp*! And many still do today......

Yet at the same time, you'd like to do a missed and go BACK into the same single-pilot IMC in turbulence with no autopilot, which you claim is so difficult to work in?
 
MikeD said:
Oh my god......taking one hand off something else to push a button to start a clock. Wow, that seriously sucks some SA there. :rolleyes: I mean, really? What kind of candyass pilots do we have who can't start a timer when everything else is working. You DO realize that pilots at one time actually flew single pilot in IMC with no autopilot......and survived?? *gasp*! And many still do today......

Yet at the same time, you'd like to do a missed and go BACK into the same single-pilot IMC in turbulence with no autopilot, which you claim is so difficult to work in?
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HEY! You freight people are dangerous and are just out of a dick measuring contest.

In my airplane, if I've lost glideslope and dme, with all the redundancy, that probably means I've had a total electrical failure.. and I'm on the right seat backups from the left seat SP. We're going UP and finding VMC.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I like doing non precision approaches at a constant descent angle, and I won't necessarily be on the vertical profile the LOC MDA requires at this point.
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Again, why is this rocket science to you? So don't change your descent profile. Most crossing fixes and the MDA are "at or above" anyway, so even if you changed nothing, you'd end up at MDA. If you see the runway and are at VDP, land. If not, go around. Again...this isn't cosmic.
 
z987k said:
HEY! You freight people are dangerous and are just out of a dick measuring contest.

In my airplane, if I've lost glideslope and dme, with all the redundancy, that probably means I've had a total electrical failure.. and I'm on the right seat backups from the left seat SP. We're going UP and finding VMC.
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You're changing the game here. We're not talking having an aircraft problem. Then again too, what if there's no VMC above you or close? If you're already on an established approach, and still have navigational guidance, wouldn't you WANT to get a sick airplane out of the WX and on the ground? Why would you want to end up VFR on top if you didn't absolutely have to? Granted, it depends on a TON of factors.....VMC could be 200 feet above you or 2 miles away from you.....but we're talking in general a bad day here.
 
Mike, in airline operations, if you lose the GS, you go missed. It's a regulatory issue. The regs say that if you lose any navaid inside the FAF, you're required to go around. And frankly, it's the smart thing to do.

I've worked for three airlines. All of them taught the same thing: don't start the time on an ILS approach. It puts you into a faulty mindset that you might continue the approach if you lose the GS, and that's not acceptable. Lost GS means a go around and proper preparation for a new approach.
 
MikeD said:
How difficult is it to brief an MDA and a missed point DME/time to flex to? All of what, 1 second?
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It's not, which I already mentioned.

The issue is that we have 2-4 pilots up front who are suddenly changing the gameplan, potentially tired after a long-haul into an unfamiliar airport, with a couple different flight guidance mode changes going on. If you've got the fuel, just take a lap and get yourself squared away again.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Mike, in airline operations, if you lose the GS, you go missed. It's a regulatory issue. The regs say that if you lose any navaid inside the FAF, you're required to go around. And frankly, it's the smart thing to do..
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Precisely. As I stated before in a post above, ".....barring a regulatory or OpsSpec regulation". If its one of those, then your hands are tied regardless of what you want to do and the situation is driven by that, barring some sort of overriding emergency.
 
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