Pressing "Start" on the timer when shooting an ILS

kiloalpha

kiloalpha

Well-Known Member
How many still do this? I explained to a student that this was not necessary with the advent of a MAP waypoint on the GPS and the fact that an ILS doesn't require time. DH is your MAP. I explained that some still do this to continue the approach if a loss of GS occurs but I say in that event, go missed and come back around for a LPV or LNAV/VNAV approach.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
I start the time on any approach every time without fail. I also follow all of the other applicable AIM and FAR mandates to the letter without exception. Obviously, since I've yet to fail (knock on wooden head) a 135 checkride, and NO check airman would pass someone who failed to time their approach. Did I mention that I have never violated an FAR in my life? Because I haven't.
 
I've lost GP before and didn't have an option for a GPS approach. Might as well push start. If pushing start screws up your flying then there may be some more serious issues.
 
dasleben said:
Truthfully, if the glideslope failed on me halfway down the ILS, I would miss. If the GS is wonky, what's the status of the LOC?
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Exactly. Maybe if you were low on fuel and absolutely had to break out, then this would allow you to go down to NPA mins (hopefully I have not boxed myself into that much of a corner), but in just about any other scenario I would do the same and either set up for a different type of approach if I had the mins for it, or divert as needed to somewhere that I could get into.
 
dasleben said:
Fair enough. In that case, since nobody is briefed on the LOC only approach, we miss anyway.
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Yup. I'd even miss if I were by myself in the Bo, figure out the next course of action (LPV RNAV, if available), and try again.

I like doing non precision approaches at a constant descent angle, and I won't necessarily be on the vertical profile the LOC MDA requires at this point.
 
dasleben said:
Fair enough. In that case, since nobody is briefed on the LOC only approach, we miss anyway.
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I would be going missed in that case as well.

The ops book doesn't specify briefing the switch to a LOC approach but so far everyone I've flown with does brief if we do lose the GS.
 
Has anyone ever actually gone from an ILS to the LOC in training or "real life"? I never have, never thought to try it in the sim either. Seems to me the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack to even worry about it. Going missed is not an emergency event nor cause for any kind of certificate action.
 
Dugie8 said:
Has anyone ever actually gone from an ILS to the LOC in training or "real life"? I never have, never thought to try it in the sim either. Seems to me the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack to even worry about it. Going missed is not an emergency event nor cause for any kind of certificate action.
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I've done it in training. Not really a big deal in itself, but like you said, the risk/reward isn't worth it. Normal approach with plenty of gas, no sense in rushing into a LOC only.

Edit to add: This was in primary training in 172s going 80 knots.
 
Dugie8 said:
Has anyone ever actually gone from an ILS to the LOC in training or "real life"? I never have, never thought to try it in the sim either. Seems to me the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack to even worry about it. Going missed is not an emergency event nor cause for any kind of certificate action.
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Like I said before I was flying an approach where we lost the glideslope. Minimums were noted for the LOC and I stopped at that altitude.

I'm not sure why everyone would go missed I've never been taught that losing a GS would be an event which would throw you off so much that you would go missed. The only event I can think of to go missed is if the aircraft was below LOC MDA when when it went haywire. Not sure how many ILSs are out there with a MDA to DA gap large enough to make much of a difference though.
 
This is pretty much the response I had expected... One of the old timer's my student flies with drilled this into him and I set him straight... Looks like I have another debate coming soon.
 
kiloalpha said:
This is pretty much the response I had expected... One of the old timer's my student flies with drilled this into him and I set him straight... Looks like I have another debate coming soon.
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There's certainly no harm in letting him do it.
 
Dugie8 said:
Has anyone ever actually gone from an ILS to the LOC in training or "real life"? I never have, never thought to try it in the sim either. Seems to me the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack to even worry about it. Going missed is not an emergency event nor cause for any kind of certificate action.
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I completely agree - I think it's a ridiculous idea to switch approaches mid stream - the only time I'd brief it is if I'm OEI, and then I'm not even sure if I'd go for it.
 
Thanks to 'muriflight, I time my ALL my approaches again... :rolleyes:

I can see the argument that if you time everything, you would be less likely to forget to time an approach that required it. Pay attention is what I say! :)
 
Time everything and you don't forget on that NDB in the middle of nowhere. Not that I'd ever have that problem...:def:

Also, if you have a problem with the GS, and you decide to go missed, where do you start your turn? The missed approach protected airspace is predicated on you starting your turn at the missed approach point (or later in some cases). If you're a mile short of that point, there could be obstructions in your path.

I realize you have a GPS, but some of us don't have that luxury. And some of us trained with it, and then started flying planes that don't have them. Just because you have luxury equipment now doesn't mean you don't train good procedures for the day you don't have it or it quits. I mean, GPS units never fail, right?:rolleyes:
 
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