Pressing "Start" on the timer when shooting an ILS

dasleben said:
It's not, which I already mentioned.

The issue is that we have 2-4 pilots up front who are suddenly changing the gameplan, potentially tired after a long-haul into an unfamiliar airport, with a couple different flight guidance mode changes going on. If you've got the fuel, just take a lap and get yourself squared away again.
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Aren't the LOC MDA and MAP briefed as a contingency when the ILS approach is being briefed (if OpsSpecs allowing)? It's standard for us.

If the WX allows and you're comfortable staying in it.....or the issue you mention above with the "fly by committee" cockpits, then thats understandable.

But for guys who say it takes too much brain power or SA to do it or to hit a timer.........
 
dasleben said:
It's not, which I already mentioned.

The issue is that we have 2-4 pilots up front who are suddenly changing the gameplan, potentially tired after a long-haul into an unfamiliar airport, with a couple different flight guidance mode changes going on. If you've got the fuel, just take a lap and get yourself squared away again.
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Exactly.
 
MikeD said:
Aren't the LOC MDA and MAP briefed as a contingency when the ILS approach is being briefed (if OpsSpecs allowing)? It's standard for us.
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Nope. An ILS is a completely separate approach from a LOC. If you're doing an ILS, you brief the ILS, and if any component of the ILS ceases operation, you're required to go missed.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Nope. An ILS is a completely separate approach from a LOC. If you're doing an ILS, you brief the ILS, and if any component of the ILS ceases operation, you're required to go missed.
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...because your regulations state it that way. Which is understandable.....you can't deviate from it even if you wanted to, again, emergencies notwithstanding. Military, we brief both, but that's simply just due to our ops allowing it. Neither is right or wrong, just different.

With either, it can safely be done if need be. I don't buy how much of a "severe danger" many pilots try to make it in even attempting it; when thats often simply "what they've heard" and have never experienced it or tried it themselves when single pilot or otherwise. They get stories of the boogeyman passed down from tales told at the puppy mills.
 
MikeD said:
You're changing the game here. We're not talking having an aircraft problem. Then again too, what if there's no VMC above you or close? If you're already on an established approach, and still have navigational guidance, wouldn't you WANT to get a sick airplane out of the WX and on the ground? Why would you want to end up VFR on top if you didn't absolutely have to? Granted, it depends on a TON of factors.....VMC could be 200 feet above you or 2 miles away from you.....but we're talking in general a bad day here.
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I'm just stating, that in order to get to the point that I NEED to time the approach, I've in all likelihood had a complete electrical failure and have no course guidance at all.
 
MikeD said:
...because your regulations state it that way. Which is understandable.....you can't deviate from it even if you wanted to, again, emergencies notwithstanding.
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Yes, because of the regulations. But like I said, I think it's just the smart way to do it, even without the regulations. The regulation is there because it's the smartest and safest way to handle things. Switching the type of approach you're doing halfway down the glideslope after an equipment failure is just not the prudent thing to do.
 
z987k said:
I'm just stating, that in order to get to the point that I NEED to time the approach, I've in all likelihood had a complete electrical failure and have no course guidance at all.
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In that case, you would have more problems than just the GS being out......like avoiding very soon being a smoking hole in the ground :)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, because of the regulations. But like I said, I think it's just the smart way to do it, even without the regulations. The regulation is there because it's the smartest and safest way to handle things. Switching the type of approach you're doing halfway down the glideslope after an equipment failure is just not the prudent thing to do.
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So the military allowing it thus makes it unsafe? I don't buy that. Again, guys who espouse this are usually ones who have been told tales of the non-existant boogeyman. To me, it's not switching the type of approach, it's just a modification of the exisitng one. Switching the approach (to me) would be doing it to another runway, or doing a completely different navigational guidance method altogether (going from ILS to VOR, for example); the exception to that being going from a GCA approach to another that you already have called up as backup. But thats just philosophy talk.

To me, in severe WX, there's no reason to climb back into it, when you have the ability to exit it (in operations allowing that).
 
MikeD said:
In that case, you would have more problems than just the GS being out......like avoiding very soon being a smoking hole in the ground :)
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I get the sentament though, just a month ago when I was /A, we timed every approach. Now, that I'm /holycraplookatallthis, with all kinds of redundancy everywhere... I've yet to time anything. Heck most of the approaches are gps anyways.
 
z987k said:
I get the sentament though, just a month ago when I was /A, we timed every approach. Now, that I'm /holycraplookatallthis, with all kinds of redundancy everywhere... I've yet to time anything. Heck most of the approaches are gps anyways.
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Again, that makes sense. In your case, if you have a failure of a system in this realm in your airplane, it's not a "simple" one.....you have 50 other things going now that you have to handle. Thats understandable.
 
Actually.. on training flights anyways, all the time I get clears ILS XX. Not 20 secs later, while FAF inbound, I get, circle XX. That just changed the mins quite a bit.
 
z987k said:
Actually.. on training flights anyways, all the time I get clears ILS XX. Not 20 secs later, while FAF inbound, I get, circle XX. That just changed the mins quite a bit.
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Are you normally assigned circling out of an ILS? Weird.

Ive gotten that twice that I can remember. On one ASR approach, Im coming down the azimuth about 6 miles from the MAP, when GCA says that tower advises the runway is closed for an aircraft that just ran off the side after touchdown just now, and I'm assigned to circle west to land on a perpendicular runway and verbally given the new MDA. Was a little extra workload and burned some extra brain bytes, but was doable. Especially since I didn't feel like remaining in icing and freezing rain.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not "unsafe," but not quite as safe. Taking time to properly prepare is always the more prudent move.
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I agree with that. Like I said, if weather isn't severe or a problem and you don't mind climbing back into it, it never hurts to go around and reset. If one is comfortable to continue and is prepped to do so, cool to.
 
MikeD said:
About 6 or so times that I can remember.

Why does everyone treat this like it's some sort of cosmic, rocket science thing to do? Obviously, if you're already below MDA on your way to a DH or you don't have the WX for it, you're going to go missed. But if you're in the intermediate segment before the FAF, or even a little after the FAF and still have a ways to go, why do people find it so difficult to make the transition?

I personally don't want to stay in IMC/icing/thunderstorms, etc, any more than I have to. Why some people would like to do a missed back into that stuff to come around for another pass when they didn't need to, or weren't required to by some regulation or OpsSpec, Ill never understand.
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We all aren't studs like you Mike. I like to keep things simple and try not to be a hero on every flight and just do my job with as little risk as possible and manage what risk I can't eliminate. If you think going from a stabilized descent on a GP to a "dive and drive" type approach is a good idea, more power to you. Myself and my crews, we will take the conservative route, go missed, make sure nothing else is wrong before I drive my airplane towards the ground "in the blind".
 
Just so MikeD doesn't feel too beat up, I completely agree with him. If you're trained from day one that switching from an ILS to a LOC is no big deal, it isn't. Brief both, be prepared for both, and it's really a non-issue. I can't really see a safety issue at all because it's so simple to do.

*My comments apply to helicopters, part 91 airplane flying, and part 135 airplane flying only. No jets or 121. It might be a safety disaster in anything else - I really don't know.
 
To be perfectly honest I have never been trained nor has it ever been talked about in two 121 schools and one 135 school. Never talked about it at UND either.

That doesn't mean it is unsafe or that it isn't "best practices". I just don't see the value in it or the possible confusion briefing two approaches could cause.
 
Dugie8 said:
To be perfectly honest I have never been trained nor has it ever been talked about in two 121 schools and one 135 school. Never talked about it at UND either.

That doesn't mean it is unsafe or that it isn't "best practices". I just don't see the value in it or the possible confusion briefing two approaches could cause.
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Gotchya. From my small place in the aviation world, I don't see the confusion. DH turns into an MDA, and the MAP is now by time doesn't seem confusing to me. Especially considering the scope of actual complicated tasks we have to do. Then again, a human factors expert might tell me I'm full of it, who knows.
 
That must be why I was taught to continue, all my instructors have been military or taught by military people.

The 121 I fly in we brief the LOC as well. So is this a reg thing or an Ops Spec thing making you go missed?
 
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