Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a single

Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

Pretty much the definition of an unstabilized approach.

So?

Look, in a 172, or in a cherokee you're not going really fast enough for it to make a difference. 90 knots from 1600 feet at the FAF to the ground is way too slow. You spend too much time low, you want to get off the approach quick. Fly it fast.

Hell, we flew that way in the 1900. Power that would give us barber pole all the way down to about 1500' AGL. Then Power to idle, pitch for the glideslope, and configure as you have the speed. I want to be fast. Fast is better in every way. You spend less time on the approach, so you have less time to screw it up ;), you spend less time down near the bottoms of the clouds, where there could be a lot of ice, rather than on top supercruising, and speed and altitude always give you more options that being low and slow.

In a single without deice boots and only one motor (hence single) I want to be high or fast on my approaches, because anything can go wrong.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

max forward to the marker, pull the power over the numbers or I'm going to have to slow down and my boss will make me Kill You.

And are you serious about TBGUMPS being "too much" over the marker? I guess I'm lucky I'm still suckin down air!

The beauty of turbines. Screaming down out of the flight levels, you hit 1500 or so, then what is it? Power to idle, flaps takeoff, geardown, flaps approach and the landing checks. Three green, yaw damps off, flaps and props to go. Minimums. Flaps landing, props forward. Tire chirp. And it only takes about 5 seconds longer to do that than it does to read this.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

Certainly true, but even back in recip-land we'd do max forward to the marker all day. If you plan your descent right (stay high), you can pull the power out to avoid shock cooling and still arrive at the FAF doing 150. All this AND complete the TBGUMPS check without accidentally crashing in to a school bus full of orphans. While flying alone!

I mean sure, there are ways you train and ways you fly, of course. But in a 172? You could do Vne to the numbers and still land on most runways without breaking a sweat. There is no need to be going 90 knots ten miles out. PARTICULARLY if you're trying to train someone to be a bigshot airline pilot, because they'll for damn sure never be going 90 knots again, at least not without praying to their God of choice.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

I don't use flaps in a Cessna 172 for the approach, but its not a problem either way. I try to pitch for 90 knots and power for the glideslope for an ILS. It just makes it easier for me. Once I have the 90 knots trimmed, then I just make minor power changes.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

meritflyer said:
Shock cooling?

Oh brother...

Heh, another myth in your view, I take it?

I dunno man, I may not fly the manual when it comes to being configured 300 miles out, but I'm not a mechanic, and if the guys who run the shop say do it, I do it. I like to keep the little spinny thing rotating under power. The rules I understand, I feel free to think critically about. The ones I don't, I observe like they're written on a stone tablet.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

A myth? Maybe.

I've owned turbo charged planes and read a fair amount of data that suggest it's more of a theory.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

Shock cooling?

Oh brother...

When its -20, you'd better believe it. Hell, when its close to zero in any recip of about 250HP and up. I've seen a jug launched through a cowling because of it.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

When its -20, you'd better believe it. Hell, when its close to zero in any recip of about 250HP and up. I've seen a jug launched through a cowling because of it.

You'd have to argue with the experts on this one.

The 1983 Texas A&M expanded on the relationship between OAT, CHT, EGT, air density, and cowl pressure drop in TIO-540's.

Long story short was they found throttle position had very little effect on CHT. In addition "They found that the stored heat is proportional to the input heat—proportional, that is, by a factor y. The factor y, in turn, is made up of engine power raised to a certain exponent, divided by cooling airflow delta-p raised to a certain exponent. The engine-power exponent is fractional; for the Rockwell 700 it turns out to be 0.33. (It varies from plane to plane depending, apparently, on peculiarities of engine installation and operating envelope.) The air-cooling delta-p exponent is also fractional (0.29). In plain English: CHT depends on the cube root of engine power, divided by the cube root (roughly) of the cooling-airflow pressure drop." When an engine's power is reduced by 50%, the CHT is only reduced by 10%.

Another point raised was rain. Rain could be an extremely effective coolant. Yet, pilots nor manufacturers raise issue with flying piston aircraft through rain or snow for fear of the shock cooling monster.

If shock cooling were a definite hazard, your engine should fall apart when you bring the mixture into idle cutoff at the end of a flight. CHTs fall at a rate of 100°F/min or more in the first seconds of shutdown—triple the rate that starts the typical "shock cooling" annunciator blinking. Does anyone complain that repeated shutdowns are causing head cracking? That's a negative ghostrider.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

You'd have to argue with the experts on this one.

The 1983 Texas A&M expanded on the relationship between OAT, CHT, EGT, air density, and cowl pressure drop in TIO-540's.

Long story short was they found throttle position had very little effect on CHT. In addition "They found that the stored heat is proportional to the input heat—proportional, that is, by a factor y. The factor y, in turn, is made up of engine power raised to a certain exponent, divided by cooling airflow delta-p raised to a certain exponent. The engine-power exponent is fractional; for the Rockwell 700 it turns out to be 0.33. (It varies from plane to plane depending, apparently, on peculiarities of engine installation and operating envelope.) The air-cooling delta-p exponent is also fractional (0.29). In plain English: CHT depends on the cube root of engine power, divided by the cube root (roughly) of the cooling-airflow pressure drop." When an engine's power is reduced by 50%, the CHT is only reduced by 10%.

Another point raised was rain. Rain could be an extremely effective coolant. Yet, pilots nor manufacturers raise issue with flying piston aircraft through rain or snow for fear of the shock cooling monster.

If shock cooling were a definite hazard, your engine should fall apart when you bring the mixture into idle cutoff at the end of a flight. CHTs fall at a rate of 100°F/min or more in the first seconds of shutdown—triple the rate that starts the typical "shock cooling" annunciator blinking. Does anyone complain that repeated shutdowns are causing head cracking? That's a negative ghostrider.

Get a digital CHT guage, it will show a significant drop as you begin to pull power.

Speaking of rain, I notice an appreciable difference when flying in rain over flying out of it. At least 10 degrees on the digital CHT in the bird I drive on a regular basis.

The difference in shut down is that typically you've been reducing power all the way down to the ground. There's a big difference between pulling power at 380 degrees, then at 250 degrees.

I dunno, let's do our own experiment. I fly the same run a lot, I'll start recording my CHTs, power settings, OATs and altimeter settings. It will be something interesting to look at. Give me a day or two, if I'm wrong, will definately see. This should be cool actually.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

You're putting your 'experience' against University studies which were reviewed by the authorities on piston engines. Their findings are mathematically and functionally supported.

You do what you see fit. Me? I'll go with the science.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

You're putting your 'experience' against University studies which were reviewed by the authorities on piston engines. Their findings are mathematically and functionally supported.

You do what you see fit. Me? I'll go with the science.

Fine, make it personal. Give me a link to the study and I'll look into it. I was trying to learn something here, but that wasn't what it was about for you was it?

Look, I'm going to do what my mechanic says rather than abiding by nebulous data posted on message boards, he has a hell of a lot more experience than either of us.

Why does everything on this board have to be a battle to the death?
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

It's nothing personal my friend!

As for your mechanic, I doubt he's studied the heating/cooling characteristics of aluminum with respect to a pilot's flying technique. Mechanics, while knowledgeable, often aren't the best 'authority' on the aforementioned issue(s).

Here is an article I have saved on my computer. I can't recall where I found it but it analyzes and breaks down what I already quoted and wrote.

To my way of thinking, there is no scientific proof that shock cooling plays a significant role in cylinder damage in aviation. "Scientific proof" is perhaps a poor choice of words. What I'm simply trying to say is, the hard evidence is scanty. I know of no fleet studies on this subject. I know of no pilot who can say "I went up and did this and this and this to the engine, and then when I landed I found these cracks that weren't there before."

Still, it's hard to argue with common sense, and common sense says that if you thermal-cycle a piece of cast aluminum (especially while beating on it!) you just might induce it to crack. Pilots can perhaps be forgiven for harboring a strong gut feeling that yanking the throttle back is a good way to bring on cylinder cracking. Certainly, many millions of dollars' worth of spoiler kits and CHT systems have been sold to pilots on this basis over the years.

My own gut tells me that shock cooling—while bound to induce dimensional changes in the engine—is not a great contributor to cylinder cracking. We know it induces dimensional changes, because (for example) valve sticking has been induced in some engines by sudden power reductions. (A Lycoming Flyer article once stated: "Engineering tests have demonstrated that valves will stick when a large amount of very cold air is directed over an engine which has been quickly throttled back after operating at normal running temperatures." See 101 Ways to Extend the Life of Your Engine, page 96.) But it's a big jump to go from that to saying you can make a cylinder head crack just by pulling the throttle back too quickly.

To my knowledge, Bob Hoover has not experienced any problem with cylinder-head cracking on his Shrike, despite his rather odd predisposition to feather both engines while in a redline dive. (Maybe this is what FAA meant by "cognitive defect"? Just kidding.)

Besides which, I think any careful examination of the concept of "cooling" (as it applies to current aircraft engines) will leave one virtually empty-handed, because I think it could be argued that cooling fins on aircraft cylinders are of mainly ornamental value. I suspect that you could hacksaw much of the finnage off, say, a TSIO-520's cylinders and not affect inflight CHT readings by very much. As it happens, this is exactly what Continental did when it created the "lightweight" Crusader engine—the TSIO-520-AE used in the Cessna T303. The cooling fins on this engine are fewer in number, and about half the size of, those on a standard TSIO-520. And yet, CHTs in the T303 are remarkably cool. (One of our readers, in fact, reports a problem in getting CHTs to stay in the green; see this month's "Questions and Answers," page 26.)

Various investigators have done "energy balance sheets" on aircraft engines, and the result is always the same: Only about 12% of the heat energy generated in combustion goes out an "air-cooled" engine's cooling fins. The biggest fraction (around 44%) goes right out the exhaust pipe, of course. Another 8% or so finds its way into the oil—which is quite interesting, because it means the oil plays almost as big a role in cooling your engine as air does. The remaining energy shows up as work at the crankshaft.

Throttle placement doesn't have nearly as direct an effect on CHT as you might think. Back in 1983, there was an SAE paper (No. 830718) by three Texas A&M researchers who tried to correlate OAT (outside air temp), CHT (cylinder head temp), EGT (exhaust gas temp), power settings, air density, and cowl pressure drop in Lycoming TIO-540 engines. Their work was partly based on the NACA Cooling Correlation (NACA Report No. 683, published in 1940), which in turn was based on pioneering work done by Fred Weick in the late 1920s. The Texas A&M group merely extended NACA's approach, verifying their results with inflight measurements taken on a Piper Turbo Aztec and a Rockwell 700.

One of their key findings was that the difference between CHT and OAT is proportional to the difference between EGT and CHT, which is (if you dwell on it long enough) intuitive, since the difference between the average exhaust temperature and CHT is what "drives" CHT changes to begin with. (If this isn't intuitive to you, you may want to go back and re-read Fourier's classic Analytic Theory of Heat.) This portion of the group's findings might be summarized by saying that the stored heat of the cylinder head is proportional to the input heat, represented by EGT minus CHT.

But there are two aspects to cylinder cooling. One is the "supply side" aspect (which we have just been taking about—all this business about EGT minus CHT), while the other is the taking-away of heat, or "cooling" aspect. The Texas A&M group accounted for this too. They found that the stored heat is proportional to the input heat—proportional, that is, by a factor y. The factor y, in turn, is made up of engine power raised to a certain exponent, divided by cooling airflow delta-p raised to a certain exponent. The engine-power exponent is fractional; for the Rockwell 700 it turns out to be 0.33. (It varies from plane to plane depending, apparently, on peculiarities of engine installation and operating envelope.) The air-cooling delta-p exponent is also fractional (0.29). In plain English: CHT depends on the cube root of engine power, divided by the cube root (roughly) of the cooling-airflow pressure drop.

After a few rough scratchpad calculations, you find that cutting an engine's power by half (but leaving airspeed constant, such as in a descent) results in a CHT drop of only 10% or so, or about 80¡ F. (Recall that in calculations of this sort, you want to use a Rankine temperature scale, which begins at absolute zero, or minus-460°F.) Most of the time, a 50% power cut is accompanied by some loss of indicated airspeed, which would tend to offset the CHT drop, making it less than 80° F. The numbers are within reason, evidently. But is this kind of CHT drop capable of trashing a set of cylinders? I doubt it.

Of course, the rate of the drop is plainly an important factor here (not just the magnitude of the drop). In this connection, I am reminded of an experiment once done by John Schwaner (of Sacramento Sky Ranch). It seems Schwaner, curious as to whether he could "crack" a cylinder at will, in a shop environment, one time took a cylinder that was heated to several hundred degrees in an oven (I believe it was an O-320 jug, although here I'm going from memory) and dunked it in a bucket of cold acetone. The abruptly cooled cylinder was later examined, and no abnormalities could be found in it.

And then there's ordinary rain. Every pilot flies through rain at one time or another, and rain should be a very effective coolant (more so than mere air, certainly)—yet no one, as far as I can determine, ascribes cylinder damage to flying through too much rain. In fact, most pilots (I think) consider just the opposite to be true; namely, that flying through rain is good for an engine, because of the extra cooling.

Let us assume that a moderate downpour contains one cubic centimeter (one gram) of water per cubic meter, and let us further assume a cooling airflow of 100 cubic meters per minute for a high-performance engine. (David Thurston's Design for Flying suggests 77 cubic meters per minute as typical for many engines.) We might reasonably expect, therefore, that 100 grams of water might enter the cowling per minute while flying in rain. Considering that water has a heat of vaporization of about 540 cal/g, it's not impossible for 100 g/min of rain influx to give about 54,000 cal/min of cooling, which is about 200 British Thermal Units per minute.

The question is, how does this compare with the heat of combustion? We can do a rough calculation this way: We know that (by ASTM spec) avgas contains a minimum 18,720 BTU per pound or about 112,320 BTU per gallon. If an O-470 burns 13 gal/hr in cruise (or 78 lb/hr, roughly), the engine is capable of producing 24,336 BTU per minute of combustion heat—if combustion is 100% efficient. In the real world of mixture maldistribution, rich mixtures, and incomplete combustion, we can safely say that probably no more than 21,000 BTU/min of heat is actually liberated, of which 12%, or 2,520 BTU/min goes to the outside world via the cylinder cooling fins. If rainwater cooling was 100% efficient (no droplets escaping between cooling fins; all of the water 100% evaporated in contact with fins), we might expect rain to reduce the cylinder fins' burden by about 8% (200 divided by 2,520). If you could somehow translate this into a direct CHT reduction, it might mean a reduction of 64°F (assuming your CHT started out at 800° Rankine). That's a pretty sizable reduction of CHT. In fact, it should qualify as shock cooling.

I think the fact that Navajos and 421s aren't raining engine parts down on unsuspecting civilians while flying through precip (I was going to say while penetrating virga—but decided against it) is pretty good evidence that "sudden cooling" of an air-cooled engine does not contribute in any dramatic way to cylinder-head cracking.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

It's nothing personal my friend!

As for your mechanic, I doubt he's studied the heating/cooling characteristics of aluminum with respect to a pilot's flying technique. Mechanics, while knowledgeable, often aren't the best 'authority' on the aforementioned issue(s).

Here is an article I have saved on my computer. I can't recall where I found it but it analyzes and breaks down what I already quoted and wrote.


I just read that article, and while I think it does have some merit I just found an oposing view from lycoming that says to avoid 50 degrees of cooling per minute or more heres the link:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/pdfs/Key Operations.pdf

That's why I wanted to do some testing and find out some more answers. What kind of data will we get my reducing power and the like. Why can it possibly hurt for us to be scientific? What are you flying on a regular basis?

My 207 is being pulled by a IO-540, so I gotta come by an engine manual out of the shot tomorrow
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

I can't recall where I found it but it analyzes and breaks down what I already quoted and wrote.

That's a Kas Thomas article. Here's the full thing:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182883-1.html

For the record, John Deakin et al didn't like Thomas very much. Thomas was the editor of Light Plane Maintenance and TBO Advisor, both of which are out of print now, I think. I have a book of his, "Aircraft Engine Operating Guide", which is also out of print.

The book I have was written in 1988, and he was much more pro-shock cooling than he is in the 1997 article I posted above. Seems he modified his views over time.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

Who's definition? Yours?

From the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook:
There are five basic elements to the stabilized approach.

  • The airplane should be in the landing configuration early in the approach. The landing gear should be down, landing flaps selected, trim set, and fuel balanced. Ensuring that these tasks are completed will help keep the number of variables to a minimum during the final approach.
  • The airplane should be on profile before descending below 1,000 feet. Configuration, trim, speed, and glidepath should be at or near the optimum parameters early in the approach to avoid distractions and conflicts as the airplane nears the threshold window. An optimum glidepath angle of 2.5° to 3° should be established and maintained.
  • Indicated airspeed should be within 10 knots of the target airspeed. There are strong relationships between trim, speed, and power in most jet airplanes and it is important to stabilize the speed in order to minimize those other variables.
  • The optimum descent rate should be 500 to 700 feet per minute. The descent rate should not be allowed to exceed 1,000 feet per minute at any time during the approach.
  • The engine speed should be at an r.p.m. that allows best response when and if a rapid power increase is needed.
This is the way our profiles are set up in all of our airplanes including the Lear.

Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook:
A safe approach in any type of airplane culminates in a particular position, speed, and height over the runway threshold. That final flight condition is the target window at which the entire approach aims. Propeller powered airplanes are able to approach that target from wider angles, greater speed differentials, and a larger variety of glidepath angles. Jet airplanes are not as responsive to power and course corrections, so the final approach must be more stable, more deliberate, more constant, in order to reach the window accurately.
(Emphasis mine.)

Also, from the Flight Safety Foundation Approach and Landing Accident Reduction Tool Kit:

The Flight Safety Foundation Approach-and-Landing Accident Reduction (ALAR) Task Force found that unstabilized approaches (i.e., approaches conducted either low/slow or high/fast) were a causal factor in 66 percent of 76 approach-and-landing accidents and serious incidents worldwide in 1984 through 1997.

....

The task force said that the high-energy approaches (i.e., high/fast) resulted in loss of aircraft control, runway overruns and runway excursions, and contributed to inadequate situational awareness in some CFIT accidents.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

From the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook:


Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook:

(Emphasis mine.)

Also, from the Flight Safety Foundation Approach and Landing Accident Reduction Tool Kit:

Yes, but this isn't about jets, or turboprops, this is about single engine pistons. High energy = good = more options. I would say the same thing in the 1900 as well. High energy = more options. Better to be high and fast than low and slow. In turboprops, you've got so much drag available to you that you can transition from ref+30 to ref in no time. Its easier to go missed if you're faster too. Its not so aggressive.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

I know you're pretty married to your opinion, just saying that the FAA and the aviation safety community disagree with you.
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

I kept the flaps up till I had the runway in sight. I did it down to real minimums a few times and it always worked just fine.

That's the way I taught. In retrospect, I'm not quite sure if that was right or not! ;)
 
Re: Precision/Non-precision Approaches.. Configuring in a si

I know you're pretty married to your opinion, just saying that the FAA and the aviation safety community disagree with you.

There are a million ways to do the same thing.
 
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