Possible new FAA duty time rules...

Rest starting at the hotel room would be huge! Now if they could only add another 30 mins for me to go get some dinner that would be even better.....

I can't wait for Colgan to come out with some lame timeframe like "You are considered off duty and in your hotel 30 minutes after your flight". Yeah, right, give me 1 hour 15 mins, thats about when we normally get to our room. Hotels hear the name Colgan and tell the shuttle driver to go slow and be late.
 
Clocks said:
:clap::clap::clap:

I'd definitely like to hear ALPA's opinion on the impact on pilot pay though. It would be unfortunate if the companies threw up their hands and instead of intelligently working within the new rules just recalled furloughed pilots and chopped all of the trips in half.
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See the companies won't be able to just throw their hands in the air with pay. It is a negiotiated benefit so by doing so will break the contract.


L-16B said:
Rest starting at the hotel room would be huge! Now if they could only add another 30 mins for me to go get some dinner that would be even better.....

I can't wait for Colgan to come out with some lame timeframe like "You are considered off duty and in your hotel 30 minutes after your flight". Yeah, right, give me 1 hour 15 mins, thats about when we normally get to our room. Hotels hear the name Colgan and tell the shuttle driver to go slow and be late.
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The new rules are very specific when dealing with this. Puts a lot of authority in the laps of the crews to tell scheduling, we got to the hotel an hour after block in, our rests starts now.

The rules should look like this when all is said and done.......

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
 
I suppose I'm a little lost in regards to how this will negatively affect pilot pay.

Reduced line values (for those companies w/ line bidding)? Hmm.

Min. Monthly Guarantees will still be the same, which after all, is all we're promised to make a month. Just because you are flying a 80+ hour line doesn't mean that'll you'll be doing that forever. Budget for MMG, whatever it is. And who says these companies still won't be constructing lines w/ values >MMG?

No clue how PBS could work, but everyone pretty much knows my opinion on that handy dandy tool of efficiency.

Any of you guys saying this'll negatively affect pay, I'd like to know how you arrived at such a conclusion. I'm sure I'm just not thinking about this the same way.
 
I hope it doesn't go through in 135, I need my 14hr day to block 8hrs sometimes, and a shorter day would mean a lot of money out of my pocket. Screw that.
 
ppragman said:
I hope it doesn't go through in 135, I need my 14hr day to block 8hrs sometimes, and a shorter day would mean a lot of money out of my pocket. Screw that.
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Right, so if it's good for the industry as a whole....but it doesn't fit in w/ your little world. Screw it. I get it. :rolleyes:
 
Seggy said:
Are you serious?
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Actually yeah. I have to do 10 round trips to block 8 hrs, sometimes that takes a full 14hr duty day to do. If I could only block say, 6.1 per day, or something like that, I'd be losing at least $60 or so off of my check. I'm hourly plus a base pay, the only guarantee I have is $1200/month base, every precious second of summer flying time I can cram in puts more money away in the boot for the winter. If I lost a couple flights that'd be between $200 and $400 per week I'd lose. Screw that.

The summers are for workin' hard, and the winters are for hardly working. That being said, I've already blocked in 105hrs this month, and I have about 4 or 5 days left on the pay period. Last month I blocked 120, so I may be thinking about this differently than you.
 
Cruise said:
Right, so if it's good for the industry as a whole....but it doesn't fit in w/ your little world. Screw it. I get it. :rolleyes:
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But see, its not necessarily good for all pilots as a whole. If feeders have to hire more pilots do you think that wages will stay the same? Hell no, they'll drop.

It's good for the regional world and 121 in general, but I'd rather have 135 left alone.
 
ppragman said:
But see, its not necessarily good for all pilots as a whole. If feeders have to hire more pilots do you think that wages will stay the same? Hell no, they'll drop.

It's good for the regional world and 121 in general, but I'd rather have 135 left alone.
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You would rather have Alaska 135 left alone. Down in the Lower 48, the 135 duty regs need desperately to be updated. There will probably be a few charter operators go out of business, but so be it. There are some VERY unsafe practices out there and some very tired pilots working. There needs to be change, even if your little world up there gets inconvenienced.
 
Stone Cold said:
You would rather have Alaska 135 left alone. Down in the Lower 48, the 135 duty regs need desperately to be updated. There will probably be a few charter operators go out of business, but so be it. There are some VERY unsafe practices out there and some very tired pilots working. There needs to be change, even if your little world up there gets inconvenienced.
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Explain what's wrong with the rules for 135 cargo right now? The only problem I have is "return legs part 91 overflying your duty day." Which I won't do, and think violates the letter and spirit of the law as is. If you stick within your 14hrs of duty time, you have 10hrs when you get off to go to sleep if you're not sleeping at the outstation somewhere. If you don't like it, or can't manage your life enough to maintain your relness, then perhaps 135 isn't for you. That isn't to say that I haven't shown up for work tired, or haven't had times where I had trouble adjusting to a duty time switch, everyone's human, but you can't legislate pilots into making good go-no-go decisions about fatigue, it won't solve anything.

At the regionals, there are still going to be guys that commute 8hrs to get to work, are those guys going to be sharp? At freight companies there are still going to be guys who wake up at o'dark 30 5 days a week, and a "normal hour" on the others, do you think those guys aren't going to be sleep on their mondays? The only way to elliminate fatigue in the cockpit would be to limit pilots to flying Day VFR, no more than 1 or 2 legs, and in conditions that don't create any stress. This won't solve the problem, and I'd rather that the government stayed out of my paycheck.

for some reason the censor edited the word "r-e-s-t-f-u-l-n-e-s-s" into relness


edit:
doug! the censor spontaneously cuts "s-t-f-u" out of words.
 
Stone Cold said:
You would rather have Alaska 135 left alone. Down in the Lower 48, the 135 duty regs need desperately to be updated. There will probably be a few charter operators go out of business, but so be it. There are some VERY unsafe practices out there and some very tired pilots working. There needs to be change, even if your little world up there gets inconvenienced.
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I don't know if they can separate AK from the rest. I agree with the remainder. There are on demand operators who this won't impact because they have the fuzzy duty times, ie on call/on rest ;) kinda stuff. They will just break new rules.

For the regionals, I think this will fubar their business models. They will have to change their staffing plans.

Is anybody attending one of the road shows?
 
ppragman said:
Explain what's wrong with the rules for 135 cargo right now? The only problem I have is "return legs part 91 overflying your duty day." Which I won't do, and think violates the letter and spirit of the law as is. If you stick within your 14hrs of duty time, you have 10hrs when you get off to go to sleep if you're not sleeping at the outstation somewhere. If you don't like it, or can't manage your life enough to maintain your relness, then perhaps 135 isn't for you. That isn't to say that I haven't shown up for work tired, or haven't had times where I had trouble adjusting to a duty time switch, everyone's human, but you can't legislate pilots into making good go-no-go decisions about fatigue, it won't solve anything.

At the regionals, there are still going to be guys that commute 8hrs to get to work, are those guys going to be sharp? At freight companies there are still going to be guys who wake up at o'dark 30 5 days a week, and a "normal hour" on the others, do you think those guys aren't going to be sleep on their mondays? The only way to elliminate fatigue in the cockpit would be to limit pilots to flying Day VFR, no more than 1 or 2 legs, and in conditions that don't create any stress. This won't solve the problem, and I'd rather that the government stayed out of my paycheck.
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Read what I wrote again. I did the freight thing for 2 years and for the most part, had no problems. The problems are in the on-demand 135 charter (and freight) world. When you have no schedule, life sucks!!!
 
Stone Cold said:
Read what I wrote again. I did the freight thing for 2 years and for the most part, had no problems. The problems are in the on-demand 135 charter (and freight) world. When you have no schedule, life sucks!!!
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... more makey sensey.

That being said, up here, my schedule is typically 5:30AM to timeout or 7:30PM, which is easy to deal with, however I could see that if one day per week you get called at 8:00pm at night to do a 4hr flight out, and a 4hr flight back with 4hrs on the ground in between it could be a problem. That being said, technically, we're unscheduled. So rules affecting "unscheduled charter operations" probably would damage the pocket books of many pilots up here. Especially guys who run their own company.

Reading comprehension helps, but if you look at it, most freight guys are technically "unscheduled" carriers. Those UPS runs are essentially all charters iirc.
 
surreal1221 said:
I suppose I'm a little lost in regards to how this will negatively affect pilot pay.
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Well, if it now takes four pilot to the do the job of two where is the airline supposed to get the money to keep wages the same? If there is no new work there is no more income than there was before. Now if I'm limited to 12 hours a day vs the 16 I was theres now going to be two crews doing the 13 hour duty day I was doing. The sort is not going to change.
So to recap, no new income, four pilot now instead of two, pay is going to go down to cover new salaries.
If I'm missing something here please point it out.
 
ppragman said:
Actually yeah. I have to do 10 round trips to block 8 hrs, sometimes that takes a full 14hr duty day to do. If I could only block say, 6.1 per day, or something like that, I'd be losing at least $60 or so off of my check. I'm hourly plus a base pay, the only guarantee I have is $1200/month base, every precious second of summer flying time I can cram in puts more money away in the boot for the winter. If I lost a couple flights that'd be between $200 and $400 per week I'd lose. Screw that.

The summers are for workin' hard, and the winters are for hardly working. That being said, I've already blocked in 105hrs this month, and I have about 4 or 5 days left on the pay period. Last month I blocked 120, so I may be thinking about this differently than you.
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DUDE!!! Start a union and become part of the system and you'll get paid to do nothing!!! Its so clear.
 
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