PNCL Files Chapter 11

Waco, I wouldn't hear the hostility if there was one anyway, this is all just words on a screen. You can make your points to me without having to apologize while you make them. Continuing on.

I counter that you are free to treat the employees differently. With proper documentation you can exact certain punishment as well as termination to an employee, however that requires managers to do their jobs. We've downgraded and fired pilots at this company, and I would say we have strong union reps. If you have a complaint directed at a particular pilot you have to go through the process, there are few shortcuts when you have a CBA (in which the CBA has outlined an agreed course of punitive actions). The process is fair and treats pilots fairly, however it does not treat them equally. There used to be a lot of contraband magazines pictures in the cockpit years ago, many of those pilots had a letter in their file and a suspension as a result, that it certainly something that will stick with them as they move forward in their career. Some pilots have multiple failures in the sim, that will stick with them. I know of instances where a few pilots wouldn't come to work on reserve (commuters), the union and management couldn't kick them out fast enough. In one particular instance they told the guy he was fired but they were so short staffed they'd let him know when he was fired at a later date so get back to work, that's absolutely inexcusable, you can't have guys in safety roles working while they know they are going to be fired soon. The pilot was treated fairly and fired (I think he quit first) in a timely manner.

You're points all revolve around control, and mine revolve around a fair process. I don't know what this has to do with the inept inbreds that run my company, maybe this should get splintered off into another thread or PM, but it's probably about time we brought it back onto topic.

You're right - it IS about control. The kind of person that starts a business is generally a) equiped with a pretty strong ego b) an individualist (why else would they strike out on their own) c) not much of a joiner d) by nature looks at the business as their creation, belonging to them exclusively, and therefore loathe the idea of ceding any amount or kind of control. I think much, or all, of those traits are hard-wired into a business owners head. Making unions - a group people join to work on their behalf by taking things that belong to you - antithetical to something a normal business owner would like or want to deal with. Now, you may have to at some point - and you try to manage that process as best you can (SWA) - but if you asked Gary Kelly tomorrow "Would you love for all the unions to implode so you didn't have to deal with them?" he's crap his pants in happiness.
 
My understanding is that the railway labor isn't under the RLA, why are we?

Incorrect. Rail employees are still covered by the RLA, just like us. There are some slight variations for rail employees, such as regional adjustment boards for grievances instead of company-specific adjustment boards, but the Section 6 process is the same for them as it is for us.

The current use of the RLA is anti labor, which you admit above, yet there is no push to get out of it. Why don't you just accept a simple reality that the RLA isn't getting any better an we need to move on as other labor groups have?

I'm all for moving on to something better, but that isn't a possibility right now. Whatever would replace it from the current Congress would be worse, not better. I'm not too fond of the idea of baseball style arbitration.

Contracts should expire, not be amended

Disagree. Contracts expiring would not work in our favor. It's a function of the complexity of our contracts. When it comes to UFCW workers at Kroger, for example, having a contract expire works great. Their contracts are very simple, so if they go on strike tonight, they can get a settlement done in a matter of minutes and be back at work tomorrow. Doesn't work that way for us. Because of the complexity of our agreements, it takes months just to negotiate single sections like Scheduling. It doesn't take all of that time just because management is stonewalling, it takes all of that time legitimately because of how complicated it is to make changes to those sorts of sections. Making changes to something like Retirement is even worse, because of all the legal implications that go along with it.

So, what happens when you put an expiration date on it is that management uses the expiration date to their advantage. They know that the employees can't last a strike long enough to actually negotiate changes to those complicated sections, so they stonewall on everything until the expiration date. They just don't even talk about it. Flat out refuse. Then, the expiration date comes along and they throw down some modest pay raise proposals, and say take it or leave it, no changes to the work rules sections. You know that if you go on strike, you can't possibly stay on strike for the six months it would take to bargain the changes to all of the various work rule sections (Scheduling, Retirement, Benefits, etc.), so you've been backed into a corner. You have no choice but to take the pay increases, but get no improvements to anything else.

We've already seen the effect of expiration dates. Management did exactly what I described above during the bankruptcy process at the majors last decade. The 1113(c) process contains a deadline, so management would waste time talking about nothing but money for the entire time, leaving all of the work rule issues for the end. The deadline would hit, and then management would demand all of the work rule changes and say that there wasn't time to bargain over them, because the deadline was fast approaching. Either take their changes or deal with the judge.

Expiration dates are good for management, bad for labor. That's not the solution. What would be a better solution would be what they have in several European countries: the ability for short-term job actions with proper notice. You may have seen airline workers in various European countries announce a month in advance that if a contract isn't resolved by a set date, then they are going to go on a 24 hour strike. They control the deadline, and they control the length of the job action. This allows for economic harm to be inflicted on the company without having to deal with a long-term strike at the end of an expiration period, which we all know that labor can't endure.
 
Now, you may have to at some point - and you try to manage that process as best you can (SWA) - but if you asked Gary Kelly tomorrow "Would you love for all the unions to implode so you didn't have to deal with them?" he's crap his pants in happiness.

Wrong. Herb Kelleher, Gary's mentor and the entrepreneur who created Southwest Airlines, voluntarily recognized unions at SWA. There weren't even elections for the unions. Herb just gave it to them. Not everyone is as much of a control freak as you are. Some managers are enlightened enough to see that unions don't want to run their business. We just want to protect ourselves. And Herb was ok with that.
 
I personally view unions as a necessary evil at many airlines. It's something you bring in if management won't play ball without one, not a given that every employee at every company should need. A good non-union shop is far better to work for than an embattled union carrier. I never felt the need to walk on eggshells when I worked without a union at my former company, and in fact, they stood between me and the FAA when I had a door come unlatched in flight. They were truly a joy to work for, and I strongly feel the good-natured working environment was poisoned by a union. When I left, it just wasn't the same company. It was just like any other airline, and that's really a shame.

Other carriers are best with one, but I'd prefer a non-union company that didn't really need one in the first place.
 
Everyone needs a union, no matter how good the company is. I'm betting a certain JetBlue pilot is wishing that he had union representation right about now.
 
Everyone needs a union, no matter how good the company is. I'm betting a certain JetBlue pilot is wishing that he had union representation right about now.

I disagree with that based on my experience with a good non-union operator. Also, JetBlue has shot down ALPA more than once. The JetBlue pilots I know are very happy overall.
 
Wrong. Herb Kelleher, Gary's mentor and the entrepreneur who created Southwest Airlines, voluntarily recognized unions at SWA. There weren't even elections for the unions. Herb just gave it to them. Not everyone is as much of a control freak as you are. Some managers are enlightened enough to see that unions don't want to run their business. We just want to protect ourselves. And Herb was ok with that.

Ok...but I keep hearing you shriek, when I said I would fire both the peer and the thief, "NO!!!! It is ridiculous and ludicrous to fire the thief! He only needs "counseling"" - and that is when my head starts to spin. I'm not sure that makes me a control freak just because I don't want to outsource my firing decisions to you.

Herb may have loved them - but I think that the tone that SWA took with ATN ALPA - jamming a significantly worse deal down everyone's throats after the first deal was squashed - maybe SWA has changed? Herb needed that great relationship then - it was an edge when they were but a gnats ass next to the huge carriers. Now? Not so much - and maybe the answer would be different today. Who knows.
 
I disagree with that based on my experience with a good non-union operator. Also, JetBlue has shot down ALPA more than once. The JetBlue pilots I know are very happy overall.

The JetBlue pilots you know aren't dealing with criminal charges right now for something that was probably medically related. Perspectives change. Everyone thinks they don't need a union......until they do.
 
Ok...but I keep hearing you shriek, when I said I would fire both the peer and the thief, "NO!!!! It is ridiculous and ludicrous to fire the thief! He only needs "counseling"" - and that is when my head starts to spin. I'm not sure that makes me a control freak just because I don't want to outsource my firing decisions to you.

I don't want you to outsource your disciplinary decisions to any union. But when you and a union disagree about a discipline decision, I do think that a neutral third party should resolve it: an arbitrator. You shouldn't have cart blanche to screw with your employees' lives.

Herb may have loved them - but I think that the tone that SWA took with ATN ALPA - jamming a significantly worse deal down everyone's throats after the first deal was squashed - maybe SWA has changed? Herb needed that great relationship then - it was an edge when they were but a gnats ass next to the huge carriers. Now? Not so much - and maybe the answer would be different today. Who knows.

I don't think anything has changed. We got screwed because SWA has a great relationship with their unions. They worked hand-in-hand with SWAPA throughout the entire process to protect their own unionized employees. That screwed me over, but I guarantee you that 6,000 SWAPA members are indebted to Gary for it. He knows that a cooperative relationship is what breeds success.
 
The JetBlue pilots you know aren't dealing with criminal charges right now for something that was probably medically related. Perspectives change. Everyone thinks they don't need a union......until they do.

I feel for the guy, honestly, I do. I really hope he gets the treatment he needs. That said, I doubt any union has enough pull with the Justice Department to get those charges dropped.
 
I feel for the guy, honestly, I do. I really hope he gets the treatment he needs. That said, I doubt any union has enough pull with the Justice Department to get those charges dropped.

You're missing the point. Setting aside a specific case, the overriding point is still there: it doesn't matter how good of a relationship you have with your company, things always come along for which a union is needed. Whether it's needing help with getting your medical back after having a heart attack, or needing someone to represent your interests after an accident or incident when the company's interests don't coincide with yours, something will come along. Just having a good set of pay and working conditions isn't all that a union is about. In fact, that's only a very small part of what a union is about.
 
I don't want you to outsource your disciplinary decisions to any union. But when you and a union disagree about a discipline decision, I do think that a neutral third party should resolve it: an arbitrator. You shouldn't have cart blanche to screw with your employees' lives.

An arbitrator paid by who? Let me guess that one...

An arbitrator to decide a discipline matter that a) occurs on my property...where I pay for everything b) occurs with my customers...who provide the business that pays the bills and c) happens twice after the initial warning?

No thanks - I see no need to pay a third party to resolve that issue - it is resolved more efficiently time and cost wise by me.

As for "screw with my employees lives". That is the thing. I don't care what is going on in my employees lives unless they ask me or tell me - it's none of my business. But, while on the property or otherwise representing me while working....well, I've paid for that time, it IS my business, and it is MY SOLE prerogative to fire at will. The employees have no skin in the game. The arbitrator has no skin in the game. And the union is remora sucking off the paychecks of my employees - and as such, they need to continually prove their worth and one way to do that is by screwing with me. That's just how many of us - and ADMITTEDLY not having to deal with a union daily see the process of having to deal with unions and why we hate the thought.
 
An arbitrator paid by who? Let me guess that one...

You probably guessed wrong. It depends on the contract, but most contracts have one of two methods of payment: the cost is split between the company and the union, or the cost is paid by whoever loses the case.

An arbitrator to decide a discipline matter that a) occurs on my property...where I pay for everything b) occurs with my customers...who provide the business that pays the bills and c) happens twice after the initial warning?

No thanks - I see no need to pay a third party to resolve that issue - it is resolved more efficiently time and cost wise by me.

As for "screw with my employees lives". That is the thing. I don't care what is going on in my employees lives unless they ask me or tell me - it's none of my business. But, while on the property or otherwise representing me while working....well, I've paid for that time, it IS my business, and it is MY SOLE prerogative to fire at will. The employees have no skin in the game. The arbitrator has no skin in the game. And the union is remora sucking off the paychecks of my employees - and as such, they need to continually prove their worth and one way to do that is by screwing with me. That's just how many of us - and ADMITTEDLY not having to deal with a union daily see the process of having to deal with unions and why we hate the thought.

You are the embodiment of why unions are necessary.
 
You are the embodiment of why unions are necessary.

I can see why you're annoyed by his post, and I'll preface this by saying that I do support my current union.

I expect business owners to have that outlook. I don't take it personally, and you shouldn't either. Hell, if I ran a business with employees, I'd probably have that outlook too. In fact, I've outsourced a lot of writing work for a number of revenue-producing websites I own. If those freelancers do a good job for me, I'll give them more work. If they do a crappy job, I'll stop using their services and they don't get paid. They might see me as the bad guy for that, but it's nothing personal; it's simply a business decision. My own money goes into the creation and maintenance of those websites, so I feel that I should have the final say in who writes for me. I can't keep stringing along mediocre writers by means of charity.

Am I a bad guy, or just a guy who wants the best for his money?

On the other hand, even as a dues-paying union member pilot, I still give my best work to my company. Most of us do actually, regardless of our politics or views on unions in general. A business owner should never be forced to deal with an employee who is intentionally mediocre; I wouldn't put up with it, and I don't expect my company to either.

Sorry that this is way off topic at this point, but this is a subject that I'm heavily torn on. I think it's good discussion.
 
I can see why you're annoyed by his post

Who said I was annoyed? Hardly. I was simply making a statement of fact. His attitude is why we need unions. I don't hold a grudge against him because of it. He simply is the way he is, and because of that, I need a union. He can protect his interests, and I'll protect mine.
 
I can see why you're annoyed by his post, and I'll preface this by saying that I do support my current union.

I expect business owners to have that outlook. I don't take it personally, and you shouldn't either. Hell, if I ran a business with employees, I'd probably have that outlook too. In fact, I've outsourced a lot of writing work for a number of revenue-producing websites I own. If those freelancers do a good job for me, I'll give them more work. If they do a crappy job, I'll stop using their services and they don't get paid. They might see me as the bad guy for that, but it's nothing personal; it's simply a business decision. My own money goes into the creation and maintenance of those websites, so I feel that I should have the final say in who writes for me. I can't keep stringing along mediocre writers by means of charity.

Am I a bad guy, or just a guy who wants the best for his money?

On the other hand, even as a dues-paying union member pilot, I still give my best work to my company. Most of us do actually, regardless of our politics or views on unions in general. A business owner should never be forced to deal with an employee who is intentionally mediocre; I wouldn't put up with it, and I don't expect my company to either.

Sorry that this is way off topic at this point, but this is a subject that I'm heavily torn on. I think it's good discussion.

Revenue producing sites=porn
 
Revenue producing sites=porn

Yes, and that stupid bastard commie ATN_Pilot wouldn't even let you fire the female stars...even after they gained weight and got a tummy, stopped shaving their legs and underarms, and farted during coitus. He'd be all "You can't do that! You can't screw with an employees life like that! You must arbitrate! Herb and Gary would want you to!!!"

See - gotta watch those union guys like a hawk.
 
As a pilot that's part of ALPA, I completely get Waco. And I agree with him. The unions are to deal with unjust management. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions. Unfortunately airline management exists and we need the evil that is the labor union. From what he writes, I don't think he fits that mold and I'd probably really enjoy working for him. That being said, I've never met the guy and he probably wouldn't want me to work for him anyway since I am male, ugly and have no boobs.
 
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