PNCL Files Chapter 11

[dasleben]

As a pilot that's part of ALPA, I completely get Waco. And I agree with him. The unions are to deal with unjust management. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions. Unfortunately airline management exists and we need the evil that is the labor union.

From what I've seen, it seems like a lot of pilots have this outlook as well. It's tough to balance union participation with my personal beliefs sometimes, but unions can serve a good purpose (safety and aeromedical are great). I don't see myself ever running for a union leadership role, but I do help out with the scheduling committee in helping other pilots understand the contract.

 

[jrh]

My employer recently became unionized and ratified our first contract.

Personally, I like it. Not because I thought management was abusing us, or setting unreasonably low pay, or anything like that, but because it's now crystal clear what everyone expects of each other. It puts into writing many of the things that used to be, "Uhh, yeah, that's the way it's always been done." It formalizes the relationship between pilots and management.

I see it as a "good fences make good neighbors" situation. The larger a company gets, the more it needs this formality.

I'd also like to point out that unionized carriers are only as good as their management and unions make them, together. If management are a bunch of greedy, incompetent losers, the company will suck. If the union is always screaming "More, more, more!" no matter how much management gives them, the company will suck.

If management actually respects their workforce and tries to treat them well, while the pilot group works hard and has realistic expectations, then the company is going to be a solid place, no matter if a union is in place or not. That's what I see happening at my operator.

What cracks me up is when I'm jumpseating somewhere, riding up front, and the pilots start whining about this or that with the union at their carrier...how it's the union's fault if they don't have good pay or QOL. They act like the union is supposed to hand them their career on a silver platter. I say, newsflash: If you aren't happy with your job, quit. Union or not, you showed up to work. Unions can't fix stupid. If I ever feel taken advantage of, I'm not going to wait for a union to do something. I'm going to walk.

 

[Maurus]

As I build experience I build more favor toward a union. Obviously a union isn't needed for everyone. If that were the case union membership wouldn't be so low in the US. Aviation seems to need them. Especially with the current business models of most airlines. “It worked in the past so it must be the employees fault for why we lose money"

 

[dasleben]

My employer recently became unionized and ratified our first contract.

Personally, I like it. Not because I thought management was abusing us, or setting unreasonably low pay, or anything like that, but because it's now crystal clear what everyone expects of each other. It puts into writing many of the things that used to be, "Uhh, yeah, that's the way it's always been done." It formalizes the relationship between pilots and management.

I see it as a "good fences make good neighbors" situation. The larger a company gets, the more it needs this formality.

I'd also like to point out that unionized carriers are only as good as their management and unions make them, together. If management are a bunch of greedy, incompetent losers, the company will suck. If the union is always screaming "More, more, more!" no matter how much management gives them, the company will suck.

If management actually respects their workforce and tries to treat them well, while the pilot group works hard and has realistic expectations, then the company is going to be a solid place, no matter if a union is in place or not. That's what I see happening at my operator.

What cracks me up is when I'm jumpseating somewhere, riding up front, and the pilots start whining about this or that with the union at their carrier...how it's the union's fault if they don't have good pay or QOL. They act like the union is supposed to hand them their career on a silver platter. I say, newsflash: If you aren't happy with your job, quit. Union or not, you showed up to work. Unions can't fix stupid. If I ever feel taken advantage of, I'm not going to wait for a union to do something. I'm going to walk.

Good post...It used to be much better. Like I said, your employer was a completely different place to work (for the better) before IBT, er, CAPA, I mean, uhh, IBT came onboard. For the record, I consider the time spent under Local 747 to be non-union. Participation and representation was non-existent.

 

[jrh]

Good post...It used to be much better. Like I said, your employer was a completely different place to work (for the better) before IBT, er, CAPA, I mean, uhh, IBT came onboard. For the record, I consider the time spent under Local 747 to be non-union. Participation and representation was non-existent.

Eh, I've only been with the company since September of 2011, and I'm in the midwest (a notoriously junior region) so I don't have much to compare it to. What years were you here? Are you still in contact with many current 9K pilots? I don't know much of the history of how and why a union was brought in.

When the tentative agreement was published this spring, I read it and thought, "That's it?" It basically spelled out what we'd been doing all along.

Maybe the "good old days" really were better, but with 240 pilots on the seniority list now, spread out through six regions around the world, I think they've struck a good balance between "quaint little family airline" and "largest commuter airline in the country."

I wonder if some of the changes you've seen in the atmosphere here might have happened as a result of the growth, no matter if the union had come in or not.

 

[dasleben]

I wonder if some of the changes you've seen in the atmosphere here might have happened as a result of the growth, no matter if the union had come in or not.

That could very well be, I'm not sure. I'm not a member of the "Good Ol' Days Club" (I was 2008-2010), but EAS was just starting up in LEB and RUT when I got hired. I do recall though that the ACP at the time (Edzo) had told my class that we would all be sent to SJU, and that we should get a head start on finding places to live. Of course, when the bid awards came out, half of us didn't hold it. In order to keep their word, the company actually built us lines down there. I can't imagine them doing that now.

Is BS still the 402 chief? I still keep in contact with a lot of 9Kers, actually. I went and visited the 9K LNS crew recently, too (lots of the same people are there).

 

[WacoFan]

I will make this clear - crystal clear. If I were an airline pilot I would belong to ALPA, IPA, SWAPA or whatever was available. And I would also take part. Part is like ATN said - it's protecting your interest. Part is a personal bias in which it seems like a LOT of asshat management exists in airlines currently and in the near past - people that disgust me as "management" - even with my pro-management slant. I do not think, top to bottom, you will find an industry with more underhanded management coupled with great incompetence. That's a personal opinion of mine, and it may also shade ATN's worldview as well.

 

[jrh]

That could very well be, I'm not sure. I'm not a member of the "Good Ol' Days Club" (I was 2008-2010), but EAS was just starting up in LEB and RUT when I got hired. I do recall though that the ACP at the time (Edzo) had told my class that we would all be sent to SJU, and that we should get a head start on finding places to live. Of course, when the bid awards came out, half of us didn't hold it. In order to keep their word, the company actually built us lines down there. I can't imagine them doing that now.

You might be surprised. I haven't heard of any cases quite like yours, but the company still treats junior pilots pretty well--better than the bare requirements of the contract, at least.

As an example, one of my friends recently upgraded from FO/PIC to captain. He bid for, and was awarded a base during an interim bid, two months before the system bid. The company could have said, "tough luck, you're on your own to find housing for two months." But instead, they are putting him up in a hotel on the company's dime. Kind of a TDY without per diem or rental car.

I've been surprised how much the company is willing to cover on a case by case basis.

I think I saw you mentioned something about the company having your back after a door opened in flight, too. That kind of support is still there, regardless of the union.

Is BS still the 402 chief?

Yes. Seems like a good guy, although I've only spoken with him once since IOE.

 

[dasleben]

You might be surprised. I haven't heard of any cases quite like yours, but the company still treats junior pilots pretty well--better than the bare requirements of the contract, at least.

As an example, one of my friends recently upgraded from FO/PIC to captain. He bid for, and was awarded a base during an interim bid, two months before the system bid. The company could have said, "tough luck, you're on your own to find housing for two months." But instead, they are putting him up in a hotel on the company's dime. Kind of a TDY without per diem or rental car.

I've been surprised how much the company is willing to cover on a case by case basis.

I think I saw you mentioned something about the company having your back after a door opened in flight, too. That kind of support is still there, regardless of the union.



Yes. Seems like a good guy, although I've only spoken with him once since IOE.

Very good to know!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yes, and that stupid bastard commie ATN_Pilot wouldn't even let you fire the female stars...even after they gained weight and got a tummy, stopped shaving their legs and underarms, and farted during coitus. He'd be all "You can't do that! You can't screw with an employees life like that! You must arbitrate! Herb and Gary would want you to!!!"

See - gotta watch those union guys like a hawk.

Negative. I'm in full support of age, weight, etc. limitations on people in front-line service positions. I know that isn't popular with some of my fellow liberals, but so be it. Nothing is more ridiculous than a fat dude suing Hooters because he wasn't hired as a waitress.

 

[jynxyjoe]

 

[sherpa]

I.M.H.O. the start and finish why you need a union in this industry on the industrial side (not safety side) is the seniority based system. Once you are a few years into a job, you are all in. It is pretty painful to leave. Imagine, if flying was like anyother career where you could leave when the company starts to treat you poorly or if you want to relocate, you could just quit and find a comparable job with similar pay and benefits. wow, what a concept.

So there's the problem. The solution. you'll have to ask someone a lot smarter then me about that one!

 

[dasleben]

Negative. I'm in full support of age, weight, etc. limitations on people in front-line service positions. I know that isn't popular with some of my fellow liberals, but so be it. Nothing is more ridiculous than a fat dude suing Hooters because he wasn't hired as a waitress.

What about mediocre writers?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I.M.H.O. the start and finish why you need a union in this industry on the industrial side (not safety side) is the seniority based system. Once you are a few years into a job, you are all in. It is pretty painful to leave. Imagine, if flying was like anyother career where you could leave when the company starts to treat you poorly or if you want to relocate, you could just quit and find a comparable job with similar pay and benefits. wow, what a concept.

So there's the problem. The solution. you'll have to ask someone a lot smarter then me about that one!

Exactly the problem! Solution is a national seniority list. ALPA should have one list, and airlines use pilots from this list, and our longevity, skills, etc carry on with us from one ALPA carrier to another (when one airline fails). No pilot should have to start over. Unfortunately, because ALPA is run from the top, their interests are mostly in preserving the interests of the senior. The junior pilots, as usual, are sold out to gain something at the top. Faaar too many examples!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Exactly the problem! Solution is a national seniority list. ALPA should have one list, and airlines use pilots from this list, and our longevity, skills, etc carry on with us from one ALPA carrier to another (when one airline fails). No pilot should have to start over. Unfortunately, because ALPA is run from the top, their interests are mostly in preserving the interests of the senior. The junior pilots, as usual, are sold out to gain something at the top. Faaar too many examples!

So you're back for real? That didn't take long.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Unfortunately, because ALPA is run from the top, their interests are mostly in preserving the interests of the senior. The junior pilots, as usual, are sold out to gain something at the top. Faaar too many examples!

Wrong. ALPA national engaged in a study to try to find a way to create a national seniority list. It was called the Career Security Protocol Committee (CSPC). While many people at the national level would love to see a national list, the problem is the individual pilot groups that fight back on it. The pilots who are doing well at their carriers refuse to have anything to do with an NSL, while the pilots at struggling carriers think it's the greatest idea since sliced bread. Every few years, the roles reverse as the individual carriers' fortunes change, but the people who want it are always outnumbered by the people who don't.

It's not an issue of ALPA national, it's an issue of selfish pilots at the local level.

 

[MikeD]

Wrong. ALPA national engaged in a study to try to find a way to create a national seniority list. It was called the Career Security Protocol Committee (CSPC). While many people at the national level would love to see a national list, the problem is the individual pilot groups that fight back on it. The pilots who are doing well at their carriers refuse to have anything to do with an NSL, while the pilots at struggling carriers think it's the greatest idea since sliced bread. Every few years, the roles reverse as the individual carriers' fortunes change, but the people who want it are always outnumbered by the people who don't.

It's not an issue of ALPA national, it's an issue of selfish pilots at the local level.

Are you talking pilot groups who aren't ALPA? I could see that as the biggest challenge to having a national ALPA seniority list, as it would only apply to pilot groups who are under ALPA...which would be nice if there weren't a number of other unions that would have to be negotiated with. Or could it be a cross-union agreement of some kind?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No, we can't even get all of the pilot groups inside ALPA to agree on it. So imagine how tough it would be to get the independents to agree.

 

[Adler]

Pinnacle Airlines Corp. COO John Spanjers to Succeed Sean Menke as CEO Effective June 1

MEMPHIS, Tenn., April 19, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Pinnacle Airlines Corp. today announced a leadership transition under which John Spanjers, currently chief operating officer of the company, will succeed Sean Menke as chief executive officer, effective June 1, 2012. Spanjers has been COO at Pinnacle since September 2011, and was president of Mesaba Aviation prior to joining Pinnacle.
Menke has chosen to resign from the company on June 1 and will work closely with Spanjers and the other members of Pinnacle's leadership team to support a seamless transition over the next five weeks. Pinnacle does not anticipate this transition will impact the timeline of the company's Chapter 11 proceedings or Pinnacle's ability to successfully restructure and emerge from Chapter 11.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/pi...sean-menke-as-ceo-effective-june-1-2012-04-19

 

[CFIT99]

My last day at Colgan was yesterday...Gonna Miss the Saab, flying low through the weather, being /A....but mostly the crews...good times with most of them!

Wish everyone luck with their endeavors...