Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

[SpiceWeasel]

If you need to talk to someone, hit me up on AIM v1valarob.

Thursday night through about this afternoon I was still in denial about what had happened. But at this point reality has set in and its making it much easier to deal with.

I don't know if I'll ever feel right. I'm feeling partially guilty because I feel sad about my friend who was more of an acquaintance. I feel like I'm wrong for missing somebody as much as others who knew him better. I feel sadness for everyone involved and I feel a little surreal because I know someone who was on it. I don't know what to do. And I'm coping in the worst way..... I'm going out on my day off and getting blitzed.

 

[KLB]

This has been a tough few days for me also. I've been flying in and out of ALB for the past few weeks down to ILN. The wind and the icing had been really bad. The night before, I reported moderate icing to ATC while flying out of ILN, changed my mind, and told them to change it to severe in my PIREP. I see the Colgan Dash taxiing out for departure every morning when I get in. I also pass by of them by at night on my way down to ILN. As a matter of fact the night of the accident, ATC called one out to me and the Colgan guys gave me a courtesy flash so I could find them. I don't think that this was the plane that crashed, but it still gives me a pretty eery feeling. At first I was really relieved that none of my friends were involved, but I really began to dwell on it as time passed.

One thing that it made me think about is having my family prepared if it happens to me. Being a single guy, I put my brother down as the emergency contact and recipient of my life insurance check if something was to happen to me. I didn't put my parents down, because I know that it would be tougher for them to handle. I would not put that burden on them.

I'm contacting my brother tomorrow to go over how much life insurance I have taken out on myself and how much I owe in loans. It's going to be a tough conversation, but I feel it has to be done. I'd like for them to be prepared just in case.

 

[aloft]

It was mainly the partial assertion that regional pilots are inexperienced and the implication (despite the disclaimer) that inexperience might be the cause of the accident that got me.

Well, let's look at that a little more closely.

I don't believe it's ever fair to say a pilot's experience level was the direct cause of an accident. For example, it would be a stretch to say "that plane crashed BECAUSE the pilot only had 100 hours", because that's the same as saying that no aircraft flown by a pilot with 100 hours has ever NOT crashed--which we know is false. Of course, experience level does factor into the question of whether a pilot could've prevented an accident--either by act of commission or omission. Thus, experience level can be a contributing factor in any accident.

Now, relatively speaking, regional pilots ARE inexperienced, compared to their mainline brethren. Remember that the pilots of the US Airways flight had nearly 40,000 hrs between the two of them; the Colgan pilots had something like 1/8th as much experience between them. We'll just never know whether a captain of Doug's experience level rather than one of FlyChicaga's would've been able to prevent Thursday's tragedy, but I've long thought that the left seat of an RJ should be where you go after you've worked your way up to widebody FO at a mainline carrier, not after you've been an RJ FO for a couple three years. Yes, I know the standards are the same whether you've got 1500 hours or 15,000, but the skill levels just aren't comparable.

Do I think this difference will be highlighted in the inevitable wrongful death trials? Absolutely. I guarantee some trial lawyer will ask a jury to ponder this question: "Continental Airlines is selling the experience level of a Continental Airlines crew to its customers, yet delivering that of a Colgan crew without the customer's knowledge or consent; therefore, isn't the risk imposed by this substitution entirely Continental's?"

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well, let's look at that a little more closely.

I don't believe it's ever fair to say a pilot's experience level was the direct cause of an accident. For example, it would be a stretch to say "that plane crashed BECAUSE the pilot only had 100 hours", because that's the same as saying that no aircraft flown by a pilot with 100 hours has ever NOT crashed--which we know is false. Of course, experience level does factor into the question of whether a pilot could've prevented an accident--either by act of commission or omission. Thus, experience level can be a contributing factor in any accident.

Now, relatively speaking, regional pilots ARE inexperienced, compared to their mainline brethren. Remember that the pilots of the US Airways flight had nearly 40,000 hrs between the two of them; the Colgan pilots had something like 1/8th as much experience between them. We'll just never know whether a captain of Doug's experience level rather than one of FlyChicaga's would've been able to prevent Thursday's tragedy, but I've long thought that the left seat of an RJ should be where you go after you've worked your way up to widebody FO at a mainline carrier, not after you've been an RJ FO for a couple three years. Yes, I know the standards are the same whether you've got 1500 hours or 15,000, but the skill levels just aren't comparable.

Do I think this difference will be highlighted in the inevitable wrongful death trials? Absolutely. I guarantee some trial lawyer will ask a jury to ponder this question: "Continental Airlines is selling the experience level of a Continental Airlines crew to its customers, yet delivering that of a Colgan crew without the customer's knowledge or consent; therefore, isn't the risk imposed by this substitution entirely Continental's?"

But are they wrong to do so? I definitely do not fault the crew, as I'm a low timer myself, but to be represented by our "banner" as an experienced, well-paid crew is many times patently false. I'm flying, at times, 76 folks around with just over 1000 TT and I'm making 33 bucks an hour. I don't want to scare any pax, because I know I'm not going to dog my effort, but for once I'd rather they know that I'm not the 300,000$ airline pilot with years of experience.

RIP, Colgan crew, no matter what experience level could have been there, you did the best you could in your situation.


PS. I was lucky to get my job. I didn't turn it down because I really wanted it. But, looking back now, when I got hired, should I have been flying people around in a jet? Probably not. Should I be flying people around in a jet with 1000 TT now? Debatable. I don't want to say I shouldn't, because I have confidence in my abilities, but I'm a dang low timer. The stigma even makes me think about it every time I sit down with a new CA. "Should I tell him I'm a low timer or should I just play it cool". It's a daily thought. And for anyone who wants to reply to this as "I wouldn't with good conscience let my family fly with you", there's nothing I can do or say to lessen that thought. I just hope I can get to a point where I can be proud of my flight hours without feeling like I'm a burden.

 

[MikeD]

Very interesting discussion regards hours. And I wouldn't put it past some trial lawyer type to attempt to capitalize upon the regional/mainline differences, whether or not they would've been noticable or even a factor otherwise.

 

[Snoopy2]

NTSB: Plane didn't dive, but landed flat on house...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090214/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home

Investigators did not offer an explanation as to why the plane ended up pointed away from the Buffalo airport, but it does raise the possibility the pilots were fighting an icy airplane: Air safety guidelines say pilots can try a 180-degree turn to rid a plane of ice.
Other possible explanations are that the aircraft was spinning or flipped upon impact.

I recall one of the eyewtinesses stating very cleary that when he observed the plane prior to impact it was flying away from the airport. He was very concise about the direction the plane was flying given his familiarity with the location of that neighborhood in relation to the airport. The same gentleman reports hearing a "sputtering" sound coming from the one or both engines.

 

[Airdale]

Not to be a prick, but I think this is last thread we need to see a debate on pilot "experience" levels. Both of these Colgan pilots had plenty of experience and I have not a single notion that this accident was caused by something they did or their lack of experience.

We operate in a dynamic environment, with many variables. Its been said many times before - humans weren't meant to fly. If we were, God would have given us wings. On that note, what we do is serious and as much as we try and control our environment, there is nothing you are going to control in mother nature. I am sure these pilots did everything they could, they should be honored, not questioned in their experience.

That being said, these last few days have been rather depressing. As many of you know, I was a former Colganite, and if there was anything I enjoyed about working at Colgan, it was the people. I never met a Colgan pilot I didn't get a long with. Everyone was very friendly and professional. It is sad to see the name Colgan attached to such a devasting incident. Its scary and surreal to see "Colgan 3407" as well, because this was a very familiar flight number that I often worked. I wanted to stay at Colgan and transition to the Q400. Things didn't work out, and I ended up with a different company, but right now I feel for the Colgan pilot family. I wish guys like Seggy and Cruise didn't have to deal with this. My prayers are with all of you guys.

 

[MikeD]

Not to be a prick, but I think this is last thread we need to see a debate on pilot "experience" levels. Both of these Colgan pilots had plenty of experience and I have not a single notion that this accident was caused by something they did or their lack of experience.

We operate in a dynamic environment, with many variables. Its been said many times before - humans weren't meant to fly. If we were, God would have given us wings. On that note, what we do is serious and as much as we try and control our environment, there is nothing you are going to control in mother nature. I am sure these pilots did everything they could, they should be honored, not questioned in their experience.

That being said, these last few days have been rather depressing. As many of you know, I was a former Colganite, and if there was anything I enjoyed about working at Colgan, it was the people. I never met a Colgan pilot I didn't get a long with. Everyone was very friendly and professional. It is sad to see the name Colgan attached to such a devasting incident. Its scary and surreal to see "Colgan 3407" as well, because this was a very familiar flight number that I often worked. I wanted to stay at Colgan and transition to the Q400. Things didn't work out, and I ended up with a different company, but right now I feel for the Colgan pilot family. I wish guys like Seggy and Cruise didn't have to deal with this. My prayers are with all of you guys.

No one here is questioning the skill or ability of the crew in question; the only thing I see being discussed is the very real possibility that some lawyer somewhere...for the inevitable lawsuits that will come down.....would begin to question that, no matter how unfactual it may be. There'd be likely any number of ways said lawyer would try to spin it too. Probably take some tack that the concept of code sharing means that the regional crews should be of the exact same standard, experience, etc of the parent company crews......or something stupid like that. Stupid to you and me, but something I wouldn't be surprised an ambulance-chasing lawyer would try to capitalize on.

 

[AMH]

I recall one of the eyewtinesses stating very cleary that when he observed the plane prior to impact it was flying away from the airport. He was very concise about the direction the plane was flying given his familiarity with the location of that neighborhood in relation to the airport. The same gentleman reports hearing a "sputtering" sound coming from the one or both engines.

I can't recall an eyewitness account of any crash that didn't involve "the engine was sputtering" or "it was on fire before it hit the ground", when almost always engine trouble and/or fire damage had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ignoring "eyewitness accounts" from the ground seems to be a good way to find out what actually happened in an aviation crash investigation either because the "eyewitness" knows very little about airplanes, the way they fly, and what causes them to not to, or because the "accounts" never were "eyewitnessed" in the first place, rather a cheap way to get on tv.

$.02

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Not to be a prick, but I think this is last thread we need to see a debate on pilot "experience" levels. Both of these Colgan pilots had plenty of experience and I have not a single notion that this accident was caused by something they did or their lack of experience.

We operate in a dynamic environment, with many variables. Its been said many times before - humans weren't meant to fly. If we were, God would have given us wings. On that note, what we do is serious and as much as we try and control our environment, there is nothing you are going to control in mother nature. I am sure these pilots did everything they could, they should be honored, not questioned in their experience.

That being said, these last few days have been rather depressing. As many of you know, I was a former Colganite, and if there was anything I enjoyed about working at Colgan, it was the people. I never met a Colgan pilot I didn't get a long with. Everyone was very friendly and professional. It is sad to see the name Colgan attached to such a devasting incident. Its scary and surreal to see "Colgan 3407" as well, because this was a very familiar flight number that I often worked. I wanted to stay at Colgan and transition to the Q400. Things didn't work out, and I ended up with a different company, but right now I feel for the Colgan pilot family. I wish guys like Seggy and Cruise didn't have to deal with this. My prayers are with all of you guys.

I agree airdale, and I apologize if I am adding fuel to the fire with my post. Experience can be a factor, but I have no doubt it played little to no role in this tragedy. Based on what we know from the NTSB so far, not even a Sully/Skiles crew up front could have done any differently.

I find this accident hard to wrap my mind around, because I want to know as much as everyone else. It scares me at the same time though that there's nothing that could have been done. I hate how my friends are saying "I'm glad we fly jets/jets are safer/etc etc". This whole thing makes me want to fly that airplane because now I feel like I have something to beat. I'm rambling now but I don't want to have an advantage over these guys just because I fly different equipment. It's not fair.

To top it off, I think about this on a minute by minute basis. If I get called tomorrow to fly, am I going to be able to suitcase this item so that it's not at the forefront of my thoughts as I take our passengers somewhere? I don't know. I just don't know.

 

[WacoFan]

No one here is questioning the skill or ability of the crew in question; the only thing I see being discussed is the very real possibility that some lawyer somewhere...for the inevitable lawsuits that will come down.....would begin to question that, no matter how unfactual it may be. There'd be likely any number of ways said lawyer would try to spin it too. Probably take some tack that the concept of code sharing means that the regional crews should be of the exact same standard, experience, etc of the parent company crews......or something stupid like that. Stupid to you and me, but something I wouldn't be surprised an ambulance-chasing lawyer would try to capitalize on.

I don't underestimate what a lawyer would do - they are sub-human (sorry Jtrain).

My Grandpa was in charge of hiring pilots for TWA for a time in the early/mid-60's and also ran the training center. Apparently there was a pilot shortage then as well - a real one. TWA and United I know were hiring guys with very low total time and no military time. United even was paying for people to get their ratings, sort of a bastardized ab-initio program. One of my Grandpa's best friends was a kid he hired then with around 350-400 hours total. This guy ended up being a check airman on every big airplane TWA had (1011, then 747, then 767 as TWA retired the previous airplanes). Also added to this is the fact that at that time the airlines were transitioning from piston prop based fleets to jets which was a significant change in almost every way. Relatively low experience in a cockpit is not unique to todays enviornment, and I would dare say that todays pilots in many ways are better trained and safer. My Grandpa always said that in the training center at least, the younger low-time kids were easier to train for the jets than the guys who had cut their teeth on DC-3's, Martin's, etc - fewer ingrained habits to break.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Can still remember in my freight dog days long ago....the PA-31 had ice shields on the left and right side of the fuselage along the prop arc. Props would pick up ice and sling it into the shields with a loud "bam" in moderate-plus icing conditions. Was somewhat disconcerting.

The YS-11 would begin 'moaning' when it was picking up ice and shortly after you heard the 'moan' you would get the ice being thrown into the fuselage and off the props. Disconcerting the first time you heard it and attention getting from then on.

 

[MikeD]

I don't underestimate what a lawyer would do - they are sub-human (sorry Jtrain).

My Grandpa was in charge of hiring pilots for TWA for a time in the early/mid-60's and also ran the training center. Apparently there was a pilot shortage then as well - a real one. TWA and United I know were hiring guys with very low total time and no military time. United even was paying for people to get their ratings, sort of a bastardized ab-initio program. One of my Grandpa's best friends was a kid he hired then with around 350-400 hours total. This guy ended up being a check airman on every big airplane TWA had (1011, then 747, then 767 as TWA retired the previous airplanes). Also added to this is the fact that at that time the airlines were transitioning from piston prop based fleets to jets which was a significant change in almost every way. Relatively low experience in a cockpit is not unique to todays enviornment, and I would dare say that todays pilots in many ways are better trained and safer. My Grandpa always said that in the training center at least, the younger low-time kids were easier to train for the jets than the guys who had cut their teeth on DC-3's, Martin's, etc - fewer ingrained habits to break.

I don't know if this is still true, but for the longest time, I remember that United's posted hiring minimums were 350TT and a Comm/Inst. Of course, no one was at all getting hired with those times, but I wonder if what you describe above is where that came from in the first place and if United just never changed it over time.

 

[MikeD]

The YS-11 would begin 'moaning' when it was picking up ice and shortly after you heard the 'moan' you would get the ice being thrown into the fuselage and off the props. Disconcerting the first time you heard it and attention getting from then on.

Agree completely! Attention getting each time it happened is a good description for the feeling.....as if flying in IMC and picking up ice to begin with wasn't taxing enough!

 

[v1valarob]

I find this accident hard to wrap my mind around, because I want to know as much as everyone else. It scares me at the same time though that there's nothing that could have been done. I hate how my friends are saying "I'm glad we fly jets/jets are safer/etc etc". This whole thing makes me want to fly that airplane because now I feel like I have something to beat. I'm rambling now but I don't want to have an advantage over these guys just because I fly different equipment. It's not fair.

To top it off, I think about this on a minute by minute basis. If I get called tomorrow to fly, am I going to be able to suitcase this item so that it's not at the forefront of my thoughts as I take our passengers somewhere? I don't know. I just don't know.

I must have watched the NASA icing video 3 times in the past 24 hours. I dont want to speculate but it really gives you chills when they start talking about the factors that lead to a tail stall "high power" "just after flap selection," higher airspeed." It also gives me chills because they start talking about the difference in wing stall and tail stall, and Im almost certain one time I experienced a partial wing stall. We were flying in moderate icing, autopilot on and the wing snapped to one side. Autopilot brought it back to level, but I looked over at the captain and said "what the (f word)."

I flew 12 hours after the accident and on the job it affected me in a good way. My pre-flight went from over 5 minutes to over 10 minutes. I was much more aware of things, I slowed down checklists, when I briefed the approach I didnt take it as lightly as I had the day before. The next time Im in icing will be much different too. Autopilot is coming off and will be hand flown, and I feel like Ill react faster if something does happen.

 

[Orange Anchor]

I think you're BOTH speculating. And, quite possibly both WRONG.
Not trying to break your balls, but........let's leave the guessing out of it.

Edit: My apologies if this came out harsh.....been a long couple of days w/ many more to come.

Not meant to offend and no offense taken. I was quoting the article wherein it is obvious the writer misunderstood the point of the 180deg turn.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

BTW for the media haters out there... I have another that might not have been mentioned....

When is SOMEONE going to correct their pronunciation of the company name Bombardier. I've had a running joke with my friends about the name but I didn't think people in a serious reporting role could continue to mispronounce it for so long.

 

[Airdale]

No one here is questioning the skill or ability of the crew in question;

I didn't see anyone questioning the crews experience either, but I think things were getting side tracked with another "experience" debate, which I think is only respectful that we keep that kind of debate for another thread. Most people are coming to this thread to discuss their feelings and get things off their chest. It would be nice if it stayed that way.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I didn't see anyone questioning the crews experience either, but I think things were getting side tracked with another "experience" debate, which I think is only respectful that we keep that kind of debate for another thread. Most people are coming to this thread to discuss their feelings and get things off their chest. It would be nice if it stayed that way.

They strayed at that "other" forum for a bit but a new thread seemed to do the trick there. I think it shows the caliber of individuals here that we have a thread that hasn't denigrated into bickering and accusing. Keep up the good work guys, respecting the memory of the fallen.

RIP CJC3407

 

[OldTownPilot]

Maddie Loftus, the Buffalo State hockey player that has been mentioned, is the daughter of a old Bar Harbor Airlines, and is now current Continental pilot Tim Loftus. Both of my folks knew Tim well from 'back in the day'.