Pilots earn less than airport window washers

[wheelsup]

I was paid way more as a Plumber than a pilot. I started at $15.00 an hour because I had a small pickup I got extra money to run to the shop or the hardware store. Once I could sweat pipe and put in drains and vents my pay jumped into the high twenties. Once I was able to rough in an entire job I started making 40 an hour and i mean pay when you show up until you leave. Also if you tried to pull B.S. like you only get paid when the parking brake is off with the plumbers you would likely have guys walk off the job. This all occurred in about one year. To be fair it was during the insane 2002-2004 era not as good now. I used the money to get my comm multi engine.

Also as a side note my plumbing mantra still holds true for aviation: pay day is on Friday, goes downhill and don't eat the last bite of your sandwich.

Pay is/was union negotiated, it was the pilots idea to only get paid per block hour...

Also pilots idea to get paid starting out low and quickly move up...

The only thing I would change about it, is have slightly higher starting pay with lower top out at the commuter level, and pay as an FO in closer parity to CA rates.

 

[PositionAndHold]

P

If you can manage to keep your job that is. I have been out of steady work for nearly a year now. Some on here are just being recalled, after having been out of steady work for just as long or longer. And my job search isn't one that is limited. I spend a good 2-3 hours a day looking all over the place for work. I simply can not afford to work for the kinds of wages many companies are offering. Or, if they do offer a good wage, I have to invest another $14k in a type rating to be considered for the job, no gaurentee's. Thats great that some regional pilots can make over $100k a year. But what about the guy who is just getting on with the company living in a crash pad, with 15 other people in a 3 bedroom apartment like, well, like a slave. Simply put, the pay that is offered to a 1st year regional pilot keeps some of the best pilots in the industry out of the system, because they refuse to work for subpar wages. And it's trickling down into every sector of the industry from flight instruction to 135 freight to 135 pasenger, the list goes on and on.


Working for wages that will not keep my family fed is no different that not working at all. At then end of the day, one is still operating in the red. At least where I am at now in my career, I can do just enough contract work to keep everyone fed, put a small amount away every month for those "in case" months(sometimes as little as $50.00), and I get to spend lots of time with my family, instead of having to be gone for 4-5 days a week. Or I am faced with moving them to a city that takes them away from their grandparents for a subpar QOL. Or try to survive on $30k with a family of four people. Paying for daycare for two kids is VERY expensive. I have done math till the tape holds my eyelids up. A once proud industry that could support a family on 1st year pay has been reduced to a bunch of kids who live with their parents for the first few years of their career.

This really isn't ment to be taken in a bad way, but starting a family is a personal choice. There are no "accidents". I'm 35 on wife 2.0 (she calls herself that), and I have chose not to have children. Your are correct though, first year pay in almost any industry won't support a family of four. At this point you've chosen family over career, and that's commendable. As Waco said in another thread if you can make enough shoveling horse crap to support your family, then as a father you would be duty bound to take that job. I know you know this, but it's not about you any more. In my situation I can be selfish, I did quit a 70-80k a year non flying job to go to xjt. Until I was furloughed that is. But while on furlough I was able to work helping a friend with his HVAC business, I did handy man work, painted stuff, etc. What ever it took. Now four years later I'm flying a Lear 45 (based on sheer luck and timing) making what I was at my non-flying job with full bennies, vacation 401k etc. I gave myself till I was 40 (8 years) to get back to where I was when I started at xjt. If it didn't work out, fine, flying wasn't for me.

So I have to ask, why no cfi or wrenching? And maybe you are, that's why I'm asking. I hated what I did before I started flying for a living, but I wouldn't hesitate to go back to it to support my family. Again, just giving you stuff to think about, not meant to attack at all.

 

[wheelsup]

You don't think the pilot who'll work for any amount of money so he can sit in the shinny jet has anything to do with low pay?

No. This may sound obscene, but it's my personal opinion that the union negotiated pay scales, especially the old ones at the major carriers, is the reason for low starting pay.

With high top out pay, people are willing to take the sacrifice of low pay in order to get there. First year pay was not what went thru my mind when I applied for a job at a commuter; it was the $60-$70/hr I expected to get to within a few years that was what drew me to apply.

If unions weren't involved in the process, chances are the starting pay would be higher, but the top out pay would be much lower. Pilot unions artificially inflated the pay scale at the upper end at the larger carriers. Not saying that is wrong, just stating facts.

 

[mshunter]

So I have to ask, why no cfi or wrenching? And maybe you are, that's why I'm asking. I hated what I did before I started flying for a living, but I wouldn't hesitate to go back to it to support my family. Again, just giving you stuff to think about, not meant to attack at all.

There is a limited amount of wrenching(side jobs out of the garage), contract work, and working for my brother going on(synthetic grass business/day labor), along with un-empoyment benifits(when they don't keep it because I did work) going on to keep my family feed, clothed, and healthy right now. My son still gets to go to Target for Star Wars toys about once a week. And the way things are going right now, I still have the time to spend a few hours every couple of days at least looking for a real flying gig. All that being said, I am still making more than a first year regional FO. Thats not a slam on regional pilots, it's a slam on the pay-scale. I know the nature of some of my posts makes me sound like a dead beat by refusing to work for a regional, but trust that I'm not. If I can keep it together well enough by doing what I am currently, why should I go to a regional? I may not be rich, and some months are for sure a struggle, but there is always food on the table. The fear I have (and it's a valid one with a family) is that there may not be food on the table if I do go to a regional. The number just don't work.

My family does come first. If it came down to the wire, I would have to go back to wrenching. I have talked with my wife about it, and she begs me not to.


Edit to add: I usually work 3-4 days a week right now, and make slightly more than what min gaurentee is at AE for a month in three weeks.

 

[pullup]

P

This really isn't ment to be taken in a bad way, but starting a family is a personal choice. There are no "accidents". I'm 35 on wife 2.0 (she calls herself that), and I have chose not to have children. Your are correct though, first year pay in almost any industry won't support a family of four. At this point you've chosen family over career, and that's commendable. As Waco said in another thread if you can make enough shoveling horse crap to support your family, then as a father you would be duty bound to take that job. I know you know this, but it's not about you any more. In my situation I can be selfish, I did quit a 70-80k a year non flying job to go to xjt. Until I was furloughed that is. But while on furlough I was able to work helping a friend with his HVAC business, I did handy man work, painted stuff, etc. What ever it took. Now four years later I'm flying a Lear 45 (based on sheer luck and timing) making what I was at my non-flying job with full bennies, vacation 401k etc. I gave myself till I was 40 (8 years) to get back to where I was when I started at xjt. If it didn't work out, fine, flying wasn't for me.

So I have to ask, why no cfi or wrenching? And maybe you are, that's why I'm asking. I hated what I did before I started flying for a living, but I wouldn't hesitate to go back to it to support my family. Again, just giving you stuff to think about, not meant to attack at all.

This was a good post, didn't come off harsh at all. You're right, I did choose to start a family and it was the best thing I have ever done. That being said, it is also the reason I don't enter the industry yet, it will not support a family in the beginning. When the house is paid off (I'll be late 30's) and kids are grown a bit then I will reevaluate.

 

[Blackhawk]

You couldn't pay me enough to wash windows. Ain't no way, no how you'd get me on a scaffold that high up.

 

[PositionAndHold]

There is a limited amount of wrenching(side jobs out of the garage), contract work, and working for my brother going on(synthetic grass business/day labor), along with un-empoyment benifits(when they don't keep it because I did work) going on to keep my family feed, clothed, and healthy right now. My son still gets to go to Target for Star Wars toys about once a week. And the way things are going right now, I still have the time to spend a few hours every couple of days at least looking for a real flying gig. All that being said, I am still making more than a first year regional FO. Thats not a slam on regional pilots, it's a slam on the pay-scale. I know the nature of some of my posts makes me sound like a dead beat by refusing to work for a regional, but trust that I'm not. If I can keep it together well enough by doing what I am currently, why should I go to a regional? I may not be rich, and some months are for sure a struggle, but there is always food on the table. The fear I have (and it's a valid one with a family) is that there may not be food on the table if I do go to a regional. The number just don't work.

My family does come first. If it came down to the wire, I would have to go back to wrenching. I have talked with my wife about it, and she begs me not to.


Edit to add: I usually work 3-4 days a week right now, and make slightly more than what min gaurentee is at AE for a month in three weeks.

I know what you mean by your wife not wanting you to go back. Mine feels the same way. As long as your getting steady contract work and staying current, some thing will come along. Things seem to be turning around at least from I can see. FBO's seem busier, it's getting harder to schedule recurrent where as two years ago FSI was practically wide open. Just keep your head down. Maybe take a break from looking so hard. Some times it helps if any thing just to chill and not get to worried about stuff (at least for a a week or so)

The way I always looked at things. I'm 35, if I stay healthy, that's another 25-30 years of pushing an airplane around. You've got time whether it feels like it or not, you do.

 

[mshunter]

Maybe take a break from looking so hard. Some times it helps if any thing just to chill and not get to worried about stuff (at least for a a week or so)

I wish it were that easy. I am one of those kinds of people that can't just sit there idle. I am full throttle, or sleeping. When I sit there with nothing to do, I feel like I am accomplishing nothing to further myself. But I find myself in a catch22 honestly. Like I said, I can find enough work to keep things a float for now, but I really need to find a flying gig that will at least put me in the black every month. Even if it's not the most lucrative or glamorous position. To be honest, if I was told that someone had weekly loads of rubber dog pop that went from here to Timbuktu that they used a Cessna 150 to get it there and it paid enough to survive on, I'd sign up for it in a heart beat. But with student loan debt, and a family to support, I need a job that pays just a little more than a "starting" position. And it doesn't even have to be all that much more. I don't consider myself a "low timer." I am by no stretch of the imagination an "uber pilot," but I have enough time under my belt flying single pilot IFR to know the difference between my butt and a hole in the ground. I have managed to make it this far with no check ride busts, no violations, no bent metal, not even a blemish. I can attribute that to the fact that I consider myself a safe competent pilot. I just hope that it pays off one day soon with a job that will help to support a family. I don't mind the fact if my wife still has to work. Like I said, I'm not looking to get rich. I just want to be able to afford a lifestyle that my family can look back on in 20 years and be proud that their daddy not only did something he not only loved to do, but was also able to put food on the table while doing it.

 

[WacoFan]

These threads become like the taxation threads, with people only looking at one side of the equation (ie the "Raise rates!!!" people that don't look at the other rules like exemptions, deductions, credits, etc). These threads focus on wages only (in comparison to menial types of labor) without usually looking at other aspects. Here is why window washers, plumbers, and others are significantly smarter than pilots - none of them go $100k in the hole taking on loans to become window washers. I know that not all the pilots do either - but a significant enough percentage do that it is an issue. Then, in a remarkable twist, many people who take large loans to get low-wage jobs (pilots) will also chime in about how they should be paid more for their perceived profession...because it is in some way viewed as more difficult or takes more mental ability to acheive that profession than say window washer, bus driver, etc. In fact, large loan balances are one of the areas that create the most amount of financial stress when combined with the low wages that occur starting out (CFI'ing, early regional pay, etc). I've seen lots and lots of threads about "Don't lower the bar going to (insert bottom-feeder airline)" but haven't seen very many threads saying "Don't mortgage your future to gain employment in an industry that doesn't reward you financially pretty quick".

 

[TWP]

You have 3 options then: go back to Kmart, get another job, or make yours better. Of course there's always the option of toughing it out to year 8 and making $110k as one poster mentioned. Anyhoo, good luck.

duh.....


My point is, labor gets what it wants by standing up for itself. Being complacent and afraid to grow a pair gets us nowhere.

 

[TWP]

You couldn't pay me enough to wash windows. Ain't no way, no how you'd get me on a scaffold that high up.

Had some family in the window biz, from the sounds of it, it's just like flying planes. Check your equipment, take the time to set it up right, and you'll be just fine. Refuse to work on dangerous equipment

 

[Soku39]

I wanna be a window washer when I grow up!

You actually make a very great, and real point with this. Sorry to anyone who missed this.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

These threads become like the taxation threads, with people only looking at one side of the equation (ie the "Raise rates!!!" people that don't look at the other rules like exemptions, deductions, credits, etc). These threads focus on wages only (in comparison to menial types of labor) without usually looking at other aspects. Here is why window washers, plumbers, and others are significantly smarter than pilots - none of them go $100k in the hole taking on loans to become window washers. I know that not all the pilots do either - but a significant enough percentage do that it is an issue. Then, in a remarkable twist, many people who take large loans to get low-wage jobs (pilots) will also chime in about how they should be paid more for their perceived profession...because it is in some way viewed as more difficult or takes more mental ability to acheive that profession than say window washer, bus driver, etc. In fact, large loan balances are one of the areas that create the most amount of financial stress when combined with the low wages that occur starting out (CFI'ing, early regional pay, etc). I've seen lots and lots of threads about "Don't lower the bar going to (insert bottom-feeder airline)" but haven't seen very many threads saying "Don't mortgage your future to gain employment in an industry that doesn't reward you financially pretty quick".

I have seen plenty of topics on don't go to ABC pilot mill and get into debt on J.C.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I also want to add that I mean no offense to any pilot. I do mean to offend low pay scales I only mention my experience to help people understand that there is an alternative to the regionals. Also, I believe that if pilots were like the day laborers and didn't work for sub standard wages we would likely see a bump in pay.

 

[wheelsup]

These threads become like the taxation threads, with people only looking at one side of the equation (ie the "Raise rates!!!" people that don't look at the other rules like exemptions, deductions, credits, etc). These threads focus on wages only (in comparison to menial types of labor) without usually looking at other aspects. Here is why window washers, plumbers, and others are significantly smarter than pilots - none of them go $100k in the hole taking on loans to become window washers. I know that not all the pilots do either - but a significant enough percentage do that it is an issue. Then, in a remarkable twist, many people who take large loans to get low-wage jobs (pilots) will also chime in about how they should be paid more for their perceived profession...because it is in some way viewed as more difficult or takes more mental ability to acheive that profession than say window washer, bus driver, etc. In fact, large loan balances are one of the areas that create the most amount of financial stress when combined with the low wages that occur starting out (CFI'ing, early regional pay, etc). I've seen lots and lots of threads about "Don't lower the bar going to (insert bottom-feeder airline)" but haven't seen very many threads saying "Don't mortgage your future to gain employment in an industry that doesn't reward you financially pretty quick".

Even with no loans, I don't see how one can argue that paying an new hire FO $1,200 a month after tax is equitable or a fair starting wage. That is about $12 per hour. The associates at Chick-fil-a earn $12 per hour serving food and pouring drinks.

However, like I said, the starting pay is artificially low because the top out pay is artificially high. This is the pilots union doing, not the industry or management. Pay scales are left over from the old days of regulation and the fact that airlines were defacto government entities enjoying monopolies.

 

[derg]

The pay is low in the airline business because we "ho" ourselves out.

Pure and simple.

We don't stand up for ourselves. When companies do overt things to weaken labor in the industry, we bend over backwards to justify it.

But on that note, there's no way in hell that my compensation is "artificially high". More like artificially low especially when compared our peer group.

 

[wheelsup]

But on that note, there's no way in hell that my compensation is "artificially high". More like artificially low especially when compared our peer group.

You say that, but how many people quit your carrier when pay was reduced about 50% and pensions were lost, and went to another carrier who paid more?

 

[Blackhawk]

It's supply and demand. We like to point out how much a golf pro makes, or a tennis pro, or how much we pay a music teacher compared to a first year FO. Salaries have very little to do with how hard a job is or how much responsibility is involved. It's all how many workers are in a certain field, how much they are in demand, and how elastic the supply is.
I don't care how much money you have, there is no way you can be turned into a tennis/golf pro or a concert musician from zero time in six months. Ain't going to happen (with very, very rare exceptions). Window washer? How many are there and how many people are willing to do it? Like I said, not me. Yet how many pilots are applying for every FO position? Probably a bunch.
It is what it is. This isn't Russia... is this Russia Danny? If you don't like the profession and have already shelled out $100K in training, sorry. You're more than welcome to do something else that pays more.

 

[jtrain609]

You say that, but how many people quit your carrier when pay was reduced about 50% and pensions were lost, and went to another carrier who paid more?

None, but it's not for the reasons you're positing, it's because ALL pay went down at the same time that furloughs were happening and airlines were going through bankruptcy.

If Delta had slashed pay by 50% in a good economy and United had been hiring and just had a big raise, you'd better believe people would have been leaving. Hell, guys were leaving Continental for Southwest and FedEx a few years ago.

 

[wheelsup]

None, but it's not for the reasons you're positing, it's because ALL pay went down at the same time that furloughs were happening and airlines were going through bankruptcy.

If Delta had slashed pay by 50% in a good economy and United had been hiring and just had a big raise, you'd better believe people would have been leaving. Hell, guys were leaving Continental for Southwest and FedEx a few years ago.

It was a really bad time in America, and the pilot profession, that is for sure.

I agree if Delta had slashed pay, they would be underpaid. But like you said, pretty much everyone did so I fail to see how one is underpaid.

I do thank the unions, because had we been out there like most of America, the ones that have been here the longest would be the first to go (more expensive) and the companies would've hired new fresh entrants.

Very little money in the airline biz, therefore unions have very little ground to stand on in terms of gaining traction. Some fair better than others, like SWA. Some airlines are just horribly managed, and most likely will be gone. IE US Airways.

I believe if you went to a pure market based approach to hiring pilots, you would find that the pay scale would flatten considerably. The low pay would go up, probably 2x to start, and the high pay would come down, probably another 25% or more. Merit based upgrades. This is just my opinion though.

Ultimately, I personally want to be paid a good wage because my company values me, not because a union forced them to. That doesn't exist in the 121 world, where we are constantly told we are too expensive. Does bad things for morale (see again, US Airways).