Read the article, and the first thing I noticed is that all the jobs that they compare piloting to are government jobs, and therefore most likely union. California being the liberal state it is, it is never assumed that the government workers are overpaid (which explains why California is the bankrupt mess it is). No, they assume that the private sector pilots are underpaid. Whether they are or not is a discussion for a different day. But what is known is that you can't have public sector workers making more than the private sector workers who are supporting them, and expect to be solvent for very long. And I highly doubt that the window washer making $26 an hour is in his first year. He probably has about 20 years in on the job (and is still overpaid).
Pilots earn less than airport window washers
- Thread starter seaav8tor
- Start date
Cheyenne
Well-Known Member
Wait! What? You aren't banging playboy bunnies???
If you can manage to keep your job that is. I have been out of steady work for nearly a year now. Some on here are just being recalled, after having been out of steady work for just as long or longer. And my job search isn't one that is limited. I spend a good 2-3 hours a day looking all over the place for work. I simply can not afford to work for the kinds of wages many companies are offering. Or, if they do offer a good wage, I have to invest another $14k in a type rating to be considered for the job, no gaurentee's. Thats great that some regional pilots can make over $100k a year. But what about the guy who is just getting on with the company living in a crash pad, with 15 other people in a 3 bedroom apartment like, well, like a slave. Simply put, the pay that is offered to a 1st year regional pilot keeps some of the best pilots in the industry out of the system, because they refuse to work for subpar wages. And it's trickling down into every sector of the industry from flight instruction to 135 freight to 135 pasenger, the list goes on and on.
Working for wages that will not keep my family fed is no different that not working at all. At then end of the day, one is still operating in the red. At least where I am at now in my career, I can do just enough contract work to keep everyone fed, put a small amount away every month for those "in case" months(sometimes as little as $50.00), and I get to spend lots of time with my family, instead of having to be gone for 4-5 days a week. Or I am faced with moving them to a city that takes them away from their grandparents for a subpar QOL. Or try to survive on $30k with a family of four people. Paying for daycare for two kids is VERY expensive. I have done math till the tape holds my eyelids up. A once proud industry that could support a family on 1st year pay has been reduced to a bunch of kids who live with their parents for the first few years of their career.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
They traded that for scope in the last contract.
Wing_96
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the article was published, but is it going to change anything?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Nothing, and pilots will continue looking for handouts and sympathy instead of doing something about the profession. Of course there are as many ideas about how to influence the profession as there are pilots. Examples include:
We aren't inclusive enough
We are too inclusive
We should play nice
We should play mean
We should just do our jobs
We should slow down
We should have many unions
We should have one union
Unions shouldn't lead at the national level, only the local
Unions should lead on the local level, not on the national
More dues
Less dues
National seniority list
Portable longevity
Maybe someday passengers will blame middle and upper management for their high ticket costs rather than both pilots sharing five bucks off each $330 ticket.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
When has 1st year pay ever supported a family? Even at the majors?
I would have (more) sympathy if you didn't strike out at every commuter pilot in 50% of your posts. I can sympathize with not having steady work; truly I feel for you because I know I am but one contract unsigning or oil price spike away from your situation. And it could happen to any of us. 4 months after I bought my house I was downgraded, and the heat was set at 63*F in the winter because we couldn't afford to heat. We hate pasta and sauce pretty much every night. It was rough.
However, cutting your nose off to spite your face is getting a little old. We get it, you "refuse" to work for "subpar" 1st year commuter wages, instead choosing to not be gainfully employed. I cannot sympathize with that. It makes no sense to me. You know the pay goes up *substantially*. We have all been that 1st year guy, living in a crash pad or at home or in a two bedroom apartment with a roommate. Yes you might be gone from home more, however in Jan 2011 I did my highest ever credit in my career and I slept in my bed 19 times that month. 18 the month after (also high credit). No one comes for 1st year pay, we all come for 2nd and up year pay. I can't understand where you are coming from when you say you can't afford to go to work. That makes no sense. What are you doing now? Collecting unemployment? If you make more doing that, than do that. But for those of us working and who paid their dues it comes up mighty elitist of someone to make fun of them and their chosen carrier then on the other hand moan about how they can't find work.
In my time here I have had the privilege of working with some down on their luck, but vastly experienced guys, who were just biding their time waiting to get back in the game. Fractional, LCC, large aircraft charter (USA3000), military guardsman, a Russian fighter pilot, ex-A&Ps, other furloughed commuter pilots (some with more time than me), etc. All were happy to have a job. They weren't so proud as to turn down a job just because of 1st year pay, and they damn sure don't go talking about how they are looking for a job for 2-3 hours a day while being too proud to come to work for a commuter.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Count me out dude. I've never worked for the airlines and since I stopped flight instructing I have never made less than 35k a year. I would happily collect unemployment than work for a regional airline.!if the airlines paid a living wage I would stop cleaning the cabin, carrying bags and doing my own flight planning.
The problem with aviation that most people can't wrap their heads around is no matter how experienced you are you may work for first year pay, you can always loose your job and theoretically you could work for first year pay for many years if you loose your job and start over more than once. So it is never worth it to work for less than a living wage.
So I just outright refuse to work for less than a living wage. All bills paid, play money and 10% savings after taxes.
The problem with aviation that most people can't wrap their heads around is no matter how experienced you are you may work for first year pay, you can always loose your job and theoretically you could work for first year pay for many years if you loose your job and start over more than once. So it is never worth it to work for less than a living wage.
So I just outright refuse to work for less than a living wage. All bills paid, play money and 10% savings after taxes.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Things are looking up for you!
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
I'm on first year pay as a ramp sup, and going to any regional would be a pay cut, in some up to 70%. But for myself, money does not buy happiness, and flying makes me happy. People complain about horrid duty days, but after a few 40+ hour shifts with a 2 hour off time in between which you can't fall asleep, none of that seems bad. 85 hour work weeks doing manual labor aren't fun. Add my current 3 hours of commute currently until I can move into my house and it really isn't all that fun on the ground.
I know it sucks just as much flying, but in the end you're flying, and I am not.
I know it sucks just as much flying, but in the end you're flying, and I am not.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
True, and I hear ya. Flying is cool and all that, but in reality you have to find a balance. Because flying an airplane doesn't pay the bills....money does.
I get what you're saying though, otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I do. Other than the flying airplanes, 99% of the other stuff about this job sucks. I guess its the flying and the hope that we'll move on to better things that keeps us going.
cmhumphr
Well-Known Member
I like how the article compares the "lowered standards" to the seven most recent crashes in the US. Trying to make it seem like it's the low time guys fault. Yet, none of the recent fatal crashes have had someone with less than 1500 hours. Priceless. Nevertheless, this is a good article for pointing out the truth to the public, but hey I'm with Screaming_Emu about hoping and trying to stay positive to see light at the end of the tunnel.
So many things wrong with this post. I wasn't attacking you, or any regional pilot, anywhere in my post. Yet that sure seems to be the nature of your post toward me. Like I said, I have done the math till I am blue in the face. I even went to a regional interview. And there is a major out there right now who is hiring that I just barely qualify for, that I could make enough on a 1st year minimum guarantee that I could support a family with. But with the money that my wife makes, and the money I would make combined if I were to work at a regional would still leave us in the red. Every. Single. Month. That would force me to live off of credit cards. I would have no other options. Do you think that is a wise decision?
I grew up in the shadow of a man (my best friends dad growing up), who flew for TWA, managed to raise a family on FE pay for a few years (even 1st year pay), moved on to flying DC3's for Unocal, then on to being their Chief Pilot in G2's and G3's when those were brand new. For the last part of his career he was flying a Lear55. He recently retired. When he did, his words were "It's nothing close to the same industry I started in almost 40 years ago. I don't know how all these young guns do it these days." He had to watch the news to figure out what a crash pad was.
I'm not here in this thread to start a war, or some kind of contest, or even argue. I was simply stating that the wages offered today are the laughing stock of those who came before us. Had they had to start out in the industry today, as a fresh zero hour pilot, the majority of them would run the other direction.
And for the record, I have never turned down a job. EVER! I recently flew with a company on some -91 flights at the hopes of getting a job with them to try and show them I had what it takes. I even tried to get WIA to fund my type so I stood a better chance at getting the job. The pay would have been enough for my wifes and I to keep the lights on and the heater running, but just. So unless you really know what you're talking about, I think it'd be best to do what you just did via a PM, rather than smear someone all over the forum.
P.S. Show me a recent thread where I took it out on a regional pilot because they took a job and beat them up about it.........
Edit to add: Am I happy with my current position. No. Am I making it work? Yes. Some months I rely on unemployment to supplement. Other months, I don't need the money, and they make sure that I don't get any. When I do have the extra money, it goes right in the bank.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
It's great you have been blessed with some excellent job opportunities; however that is not the case of the person I was responding to.
Another problem with unemployment is medical insurance. We have some really good BC/BS coverage here and if I was on unemployment, the UE payout wouldn't even cover COBRA. As it is, our contribution is contractually limited to a fairly low (IMHO) amount.
Also your livable wage is certainly more than mine, I can get by on not that much. Although it has certainly increased since being a CFI! House, Blockbuster, internet, medical insurance, tools (play money), cell phone with internet access, eating out vs eating in, etc. etc.