Paying your dues.

[///AMG]

”Gatekeepers” were generally considered as mentors/teachers, without regard to how salty they might be - a long time ago and in my own limited experience. Their time on the job was invaluable, and I never met one (however grumpy at first with being saddled by an FNG), who refused to teach me and appreciated both my desire to invest in the job and my work ethic. With sufficient experience and by (slowly) proving myself, I was able to move up through the ranks in every job I ever held. Finally, it turned out that I was the old guy responsible for sharing the things I knew and being an effective leader.

How is aviation different?

I don't think there is a difference in general. You said it yourself, there are those who teach/mentor, and the rest are irrelevant. Nobody wants to listen to an old irrelevant guy bitch about anything.

 

[knot4u]

I don't think there is a difference in general. You said it yourself, there are those who teach/mentor, and the rest are irrelevant. Nobody wants to listen to an old irrelevant guy bitch about anything.

I agree. I might start farting around with a bunch of nincompoops again shortly, we'll see how it works out.

 

[SteveC]

... Nobody wants to listen to an old irrelevant guy bitch about anything.

Hey!

 

[TWP]

Why would you care? The ladder is imperfect in every industry, it's entirely up to those that have earned some experience who they decide to mentor. I have not refused to mentor anyone, but I've also never mentored anyone I didn't like and respect.

Some guys REALLY care. It’s a weird little kid version of “fairness” they have in their head.

“My toy broke so you have to break Timmy’s toy so it’s fair!”

I’ve made it to where I want to be waaaaaaaaaaaay quicker and easier than a lot of other guys and that’s just too dang bad if they don’t like it. I had a timeline to either be successful or bail, I took opportunities as they popped up, and uhhhh, compared to most of the complainers my personality flaws aren’t on display everywhere I go.

These guys who did 15 years at a regional who are upset about others doing 5, I have to wonder why they stayed in the first place. I woulda quit the biz long before then. And if they truly love flying that much, why are they so bitter?

 

[stroboli62]

I don't think there is a difference in general. You said it yourself, there are those who teach/mentor, and the rest are irrelevant. Nobody wants to listen to an old irrelevant guy bitch about anything.

 

[ppragman]

experience, job performance and time on the job “opened the door” to positions of greater responsibility.

I have found this to be the case only about 50% of the time. Maybe that’s changed in the last little bit, but mostly doors opening (for myself and my friends) has mostly come down to timing, the market, and luck.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Please forgive me while I light a dumpster fire.

View attachment 63280

I received a TBNT email from a company I applied to, okay not the end of the world. I enlisted the services of a interview prep place to improve my interview skills. I was talking to a long time acquaintance about the situation and I was told I had a bad attitude and I needed to go "pay my dues." What exactly is that, what have I been doing all these years? (skydive pilot, overseas contract pilot, current 135 charter pilot)

I am trying to get a consensus of what exactly it means to "pay your dues." Go to regional and eat ramen (although with their bonuses you can afford the fancy ramen now) for a couple of years. Get that magic 121 time? Commute to a crashpad to sit reserve across the country?

I quoted the first post, but I read the whole thread. I may or may not have the wasta to say this, but IF you want to go to 121 then go to a dang regional. You have your pick of which one to go to right now, and you get a living wage (crazy, right?), and experience of line flying. It's not necessarily for the privilege of "paying your dues" though. It is because that is one of the most proven way to get to a major. Many are hiring regional FOs with no TPIC. People have said it here before...There are plenty of ways around the regionals, but they often don't work out and a significant number of people who try them end up at the regionals anyway. Good luck with whatever you try.

 

[knot4u]

Some guys REALLY care. It’s a weird little kid version of “fairness” they have in their head.

“My toy broke so you have to break Timmy’s toy so it’s fair!”

I’ve made it to where I want to be waaaaaaaaaaaay quicker and easier than a lot of other guys and that’s just too dang bad if they don’t like it. I had a timeline to either be successful or bail, I took opportunities as they popped up, and uhhhh, compared to most of the complainers my personality flaws aren’t on display everywhere I go.

These guys who did 15 years at a regional who are upset about others doing 5, I have to wonder why they stayed in the first place. I woulda quit the biz long before then. And if they truly love flying that much, why are they so bitter?

My progress has not been typical, I spent most of my early years working either on a bench or running a test bench overhauling big prop controls, or working on helicopters, or working on an unlimited gold racer. It took me a while to transition to jets. Over the years I've dealt with a lot of people, some have been excellent, others not so much. I've tried to help people that always complained they weren't being paid enough and would badmouth people who advanced before them and then when I'd try to get them run qualified it would become very obvious they had no basic understanding about how the airplane actually works or why things are done a certain way and at that point it would've been irresponsible of me to turn them loose so I wouldn't sign off, these same people seemed to always become indignant when offered constructive criticism. There are also people that are happy just pulling panels and changing wheels and even if you try to pull them up they resist and refuse any additional responsibilty. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around I guess.

 

[mwflyer]

I quoted the first post, but I read the whole thread. I may or may not have the wasta to say this, but IF you want to go to 121 then go to a dang regional. You have your pick of which one to go to right now, and you get a living wage (crazy, right?), and experience of line flying. It's not necessarily for the privilege of "paying your dues" though. It is because that is one of the most proven way to get to a major. Many are hiring regional FOs with no TPIC. People have said it here before...There are plenty of ways around the regionals, but they often don't work out and a significant number of people who try them end up at the regionals anyway. Good luck with whatever you try.

@jtrain609 said it famously on here years ago, as to the question of skipping the regionals to still end up at a major. “Many have tried, most have failed.”

 

[jtrain609]

@jtrain609 said it famously on here years ago, as to the question of skipping the regionals to still end up at a major. “Many have tried, most have failed.”

 

[ClearedForOption]

No two pilots take exactly the same path from their first time in an aircraft to the day of their retirement. The length of that path from that first time in the air to the proverbial 'dream job' is also different for everyone and so many factors are in play that's it's impossible to lay down a course of bricks so that everyone can follow the same road. In my opinion, since (most) of the industry is seniority based we get this a lot. It tends to stem from jealousy and other human factors.

The reality of the situation is that the target is always moving. Operators set a minimum level of experience due to economic factors, company 'culture', (for lack of a better term that encompasses all the HR stuff, training data, feedback, etc.) and finally the regulatory minimums at the time.

Many great posts above.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Why would you care? The ladder is imperfect in every industry, it's entirely up to those that have earned some experience who they decide to mentor. I have not refused to mentor anyone, but I've also never mentored anyone I didn't like and respect.

Because when they say it, they are (typically) saying it in a (subtle) condescending tone.