Paying your dues.

[gliderboy]

Paying your dues is the dumbest saying in aviation. I have hated hearing it from morons who had crap careers and expect everyone else to have one too. Not my fault somebody was stuck a garbage regional for 13 years, why should everyone have to bear the same trauma?

Don't listen to anyone that tells you that you have to pay your dues.

Actually, it's merely a way of saying 'you need put in the time and effort required to learn your trade'. In the days of sailing it was called 'coming in through the hawse hole' (the opening in the bow through with the anchor chain passes). That is, you started at the forecastle, as a common sailer, 'learned the ropes' and worked your way towards the back of the ship where the officers worked. For doctors those dues are: pre-med, med school and residency, etc.
And since corporations are first and foremost social organizations, mastering the requisite social skills is part of the process.

 

[luke3]

I never liked that expression and think it's a load of garbage. Just gatekeeping and propagation of the "i had to suffer to get here and so should you" mentality. Mostly because what "dues paying" looks like for someone might not be what it looks like to someone else.

Some of it is inherent in the business. The best paying jobs with the best working conditions have the highest experience requirements. To meet them we usually have to build experience through jobs with not as good pay and working conditions. Some people are luckier than others and might skip a step or two. Does that make them worse pilots or people? Absolutely not, as long as they don't have • attitudes of course. Those that strive to master this profession will keep getting better and better regardless what they fly. What they might lack is a bit of perspective. That is where good mentoring from those that gained this different perspective is important, even if just a reminder that maybe we can't always be so fortunate. Just make sure we still want to do this and are ready if and when our luck turns.

I've always been a big proponent of taking the road less traveled, and it has worked well for me personally, even though at times I definitely questioned what the hell I was doing. There's no one defined way to navigate this career and the steps we take to reach the company we'll retire from don't all need to be the same. Be weary of those that say you HAVE to do X, Y, or Z to make it. I find it a very narrow view of this career

 

[DE727UPS]

I keep seeing the phrase related to unfair suffering. I always took it to mean gaining and having more experience and a variety of flying backgrounds as something that makes a more well rounded pilot. Not a bad thing.

 

[ppragman]

I've always been a big proponent of taking the road less traveled, and it has worked well for me personally, even though at times I definitely questioned what the hell I was doing

This was my strategy.

At times I wondered “wtf am I doing?!” but hindsight being 20-20 this was the best way this could have gone.

 

[Inverted]

Actually, it's merely a way of saying 'you need put in the time and effort required to learn your trade'. In the days of sailing it was called 'coming in through the hawse hole' (the opening in the bow through with the anchor chain passes). That is, you started at the forecastle, as a common sailer, 'learned the ropes' and worked your way towards the back of the ship where the officers worked. For doctors those dues are: pre-med, med school and residency, etc.
And since corporations are first and foremost social organizations, mastering the requisite social skills is part of the process.

I disagree fully.

The people who preach "pay your dues" have misconstrued ideas about what somebody else has to do. Do I care if a 2500 hour pilot gets hired at Delta? No. Should he have 12,000 hours like the guy next to him? No.

Who cares!? Pay your dues is New Balance wearing CA code for "your career track should look as crappy as mine does"

 

[bike21]

I disagree fully.

The people who preach "pay your dues" have misconstrued ideas about what somebody else has to do. Do I care if a 2500 hour pilot gets hired at Delta? No. Should he have 12,000 hours like the guy next to him? No.

Who cares!? Pay your dues is New Balance wearing CA code for "your career track should look as crappy as mine does"

Misery loves company.

 

[Inverted]

Misery loves company.

So does success.

If you and I are both where we want to be, why would I care how you got there?

 

[Hiboglossi]

Misery loves company.

I remember in 2020 when it looked like there were going to be mass furloughs, there was a palpable sense of glee from some on here about those who had entered the industry since the previous downturn experiencing their first round of bankruptcies and furloughs.

 

[Inverted]

I remember in 2020 when it looked like there were going to be mass furloughs, there was a palpable sense of glee from some on here about those who had entered the industry since the previous downturn experiencing a round of bankruptcies and furloughs.

"now you young bucks will know what it's like to be a real airline pilot"

BRB grabbing more middle fingers...

 

[bike21]

So does success.

If you and I are both where we want to be, why would I care how you got there?

Yep, and that’s why I agreed with you.

 

[Apophis]

If 121 is the goal some 121 time will probably help but I don’t have any recruiting experience so take that with a grain of salt.

Otherwise, I wouldn’t tell you to pay dues but rather just build more time.

Is all 121 really “121” though? I mean, I’m closing in on 1000 121, but all of it is flying garbage tier ATR42/72s at a 121 supplemental feeder.

Guess I won’t know until I apply at places soon-ish, but wouldn’t surprise me to get the same treatment.

 

[Fixtur]

There will always be gatekeeping dickbags. Ignore them.

To the original poster - listen to your friend, and do that interview prep. You might not have meant to come off sounding like you (apparently) did, but your intent isn't the point.

Next interview you'll know to play the part the way the interviewer wants it played. It's just acting. Be an actor. Your motivation is "I really want the job and I'll do what it takes to get it." (Giggity).

Fix

 

[Bob Ridpath]

I always worked in trades other than aviation (other than a short stint as a line boy at BEV, a million years ago). In every one of them (including the step from front desk signing out rentals to refueling and taxiing planes at BEV), experience, job performance and time on the job “opened the door” to positions of greater responsibility.

Maybe that’s just comparing apples with seashells, I don’t know - and I mean no disrespect in this asking.

”Gatekeepers” were generally considered as mentors/teachers, without regard to how salty they might be - a long time ago and in my own limited experience. Their time on the job was invaluable, and I never met one (however grumpy at first with being saddled by an FNG), who refused to teach me and appreciated both my desire to invest in the job and my work ethic. With sufficient experience and by (slowly) proving myself, I was able to move up through the ranks in every job I ever held. Finally, it turned out that I was the old guy responsible for sharing the things I knew and being an effective leader.

How is aviation different?

 

[knot4u]

I always worked in trades other than aviation (other than a short stint as a line boy at BEV, a million years ago). In every one of them (including the step from front desk signing out rentals to refueling and taxiing planes at BEV), experience, job performance and time on the job “opened the door” to positions of greater responsibility.

Maybe that’s just comparing apples with seashells, I don’t know - and I mean no disrespect in this asking.

”Gatekeepers” were generally considered as mentors/teachers, without regard to how salty they might be - a long time ago and in my own limited experience. Their time on the job was invaluable, and I never met one (however grumpy at first with being saddled by an FNG), who refused to teach me and appreciated both my desire to invest in the job and my work ethic. With sufficient experience and by (slowly) proving myself, I was able to move up through the ranks in every job I ever held. Finally, it turned out that I was the old guy responsible for sharing the things I knew and being an effective leader.

How is aviation different?

It's not. Experience is the metric that'll open doors. Attitude is the metric that'll let someone walk through them. I've been "saddled with an FNG" plenty of times. I've taught people with only a couple of years as a mechanic to run and taxi, I've also not given that instruction to folks with over a decade of experience. Everyone pays their dues, how they do it seems almost random but it's not, the people who are obviously not just there for a paycheck will get the more valuable experience. I know mechanics that have been doing this as long as I have and they've never run an airplane, they've paid their dues I guess, but they've gone about it the wrong way.

 

[sorrygottarunway]

The theoretical line guy/fuel guy looking at the pilots on a cold winters day, sitting in their APU warmed cockpit wondering “why do they deserve to be there, and me out here doing this junk job?”

 

[knot4u]

The theoretical line guy/fuel guy looking at the pilots on a cold winters day, sitting in their APU warmed cockpit wondering “why do they deserve to be there, and me out here doing this junk job?”

What's that line guy working toward? Line service is a wonderful networking opportunity for an ambitious young person. It's not why do they deserve to be there? It's how do I get there? If they're just standing around in the cold and complaining and go home angry they're not doing it right.

 

[thepotato232]

I keep seeing the phrase related to unfair suffering. I always took it to mean gaining and having more experience and a variety of flying backgrounds as something that makes a more well rounded pilot. Not a bad thing.

Folks are just talking in broad strokes about a phrase most often heard in the context of justifying (among other things) the disaster of regional outsourcing, the decay of general aviation, and literal poverty conditions at the lower levels of the industry.

To put it in more direct terms, there are a *lot* of people in this industry who would be livid at the idea of anyone being hired at UPS in their 20s, who find the thought of helping someone achieve that kind of success repulsive, and who lean on tired clichés to justify their miserable attitude. If you associate the phrase with honest attempts at mentorship and improvement, it's a sign that you spent your developmental years in the company of exactly the sort of people that the original poster should be seeking out right now.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Can I be against both sides? It's if it's reproductive-organ-head Boomer who screams at $15/hour CSRs and thinks everyone should be treated as poorly as they were because screw everyone who isn't me vs. hilariously-entitled clown-shoe Zillenial who thinks it's a civil rights violation that they aren't in the left seat of a GVI at 30 but can't be arsed to read the AOM, I want them both to lose. If that's Wrong, I don't want to be Right.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So does success.

If you and I are both where we want to be, why would I care how you got there?

Because for some people, they “feel” that you didn’t deserve it based on how quickly you got hired and with the hours you did.

(I don’t mean you personally, the general you)

 

[knot4u]

Because for some people, they “feel” that you didn’t deserve it based on how quickly you got hired and with the hours you did.

(I don’t mean you personally, the general you)

Why would you care? The ladder is imperfect in every industry, it's entirely up to those that have earned some experience who they decide to mentor. I have not refused to mentor anyone, but I've also never mentored anyone I didn't like and respect.