Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
What does "prospectively" mean to you?
Part 135 operators who are by the book (or at least try really hard to be)
- Thread starter flyinghedgehog
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SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
It means "known in advance". That's straight from the chief counsel's letter.
What part of my example would not meet that? If the company calls and tells you that are in rest for the next 10 hours, then you go fly, you were legal.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Shrug. The Bradley FSDO, at least, does not consider knowing one's rest period one minute in advance to be sufficient to meet the prospective clause. They want us on defined duty periods. Eg. Duty on at 8am in the hotel. Remain available until 10pm at which point one turns in to a pumpkin. Rinse, wash, repeat.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting interpretation. I wonder how they'd feel about a schedule change during your day? E.G. you just finished leg 3 of a 4 leg day when the company calls and tells you to wrap things up and go on rest, leg 4 is canceled. Could you be back on duty 10 hours later?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
No. Defined duty periods mean just that. You are told that you're on duty from x to y, it's set in stone. The only way that can move your availability is to give you extra rest and push the window back.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Doesn't matter what the FSDO "thinks". They don't interpret regulations.
Rest must be:
Prospective
Continuous
You can be "on call" all the time, the only caveat being that after the completion of the assigned flight duty, looking back 24 hours there must have been 10 hours of continuous rest, known prospectively.
Put me on call at 6am Monday morning, call me Thursday morning at 8am for a show time of 1830 pm for a flight that completes at 0800 the next morning. Completely legal. Crappy, yes. Legal. Yup.
The rest was known in advance (before the trip), was continuous and was 10 hours within the 24 hour look back window.
To make it better, you can finish that trip at 0800 then be assigned "duty" of attending company training and even a training flight.
Again, smart... Nope. "Legal"... yup.
That prospective wording is to keep operators from keeping you on call, not free from responsibility, and then saying you were IN REST, because you didn't do anything but sit at home and watch the phone not ring.
It would be an absolutely terrible way of running a charter outfit. Pop ups aren't going to wait 10+ hours to fly from TEB to HPN. This is simply an example of how to make sure your rest schedule is at a bare minimum, legal.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
That is prospective. Legs change, days change. If the company shuts you down early thats fine, the next day HAS to be known in advance as a duty time. Legs, destinations etc does not matter one bit. You have a duty start day, the company can work you 7 hours or 14 hours it does not matter, however before you are put on rest you must be given the start time of your next duty period before you are shut down. Your day can change a million times overnight, however they cannot start you earlier or later than the duty start time they assigned you prior to you being shut down. Quite often I wake up to having my entire day erased and I show at the hotel instead of flying, but my duty start time was the same, and it may be an 8am show, and I may not fly until 5pm.
You cannot be on call 24/7 under any circumstance, period, end of discussion, no grey area, no work arounds, nothing.
I will also remind you that FSDOs do not make policy, they uphold the policies in place, so when I hear the argument that FSDOs allow 24/7 on call, that is incorrect. LOIs from the office of the chief counsel are the policy, or the interpretation of the policy in question, and that is law, and is to be followed as such.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
I'm kind of following both sides of this discussion. It seems one side is talking about defined duty (which the regs don't discuss, but would be preferable), and the other side is defined rest. You have to have 10 hours of rest looking back 24, and rest must be prospectively determined, continuous, and free from duty.
If a company calls and puts you in rest for 10 hours, whenever that might be, I'd think you'd have a hard time saying that wasn't known in advance and prospectively determined. If that call came at noon you'd still have to check your level of fatigue at show time, but that seems to check all the boxes.
I'm happy to be proven wrong there.
If a company calls and puts you in rest for 10 hours, whenever that might be, I'd think you'd have a hard time saying that wasn't known in advance and prospectively determined. If that call came at noon you'd still have to check your level of fatigue at show time, but that seems to check all the boxes.
I'm happy to be proven wrong there.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
And I'm telling you again, this is not viewed as sufficiently "proscriptive" by at least one FSDO. I'm assuming you're not an aviation attorney. I'm not, either. So we are equally qualified to interpret the reg. Personally, I think it's farsically obvious that the intention of the reg is NOT to allow "we got a trip, you're on rest, go to sleep right now".
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
As someone earlier pointed out, the FADOs don't determine policy. How does the FAA legal council define "sufficiently prospective"?
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
And I'm telling you. It doesn't matter what your FSDO says. If it is more restrictive than the REG/Interps and your company follows that, awesome.
That does not mean anyone else not doing what your FSDO says is in violation of the REGs.
You don't have to be a lawyer to read the multiple Chief Council interps on this very subject. Prospective means nothing more than "in advance". Not one letter from the Chief Council, I'm relatively confident I've read them all, references any time frame of how prospective the rest notification must be. Rest must be simply known about before the "flight duty" assignment.
I'm not advocating in any way shape or form for operations to be run as I described in my previous post. AGAIN, that is simply an example of a way to determine if you have MINIMUM LEGAL rest.
My shop does on call from Noon to 6pm while at home. Any call between Noon and 6 you can go fly until 2am.
A call after 6 you have no obligation to go fly BUT you should answer your phone. After 2am, turn your phone off.
I was called at 1930 one night for a possible pop up that would require a 4am show. No go. Not enough rest time. Not a peep from management.
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Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
On the contrary, it's a much better way to run a charter outfit than what you seem to be advocating, IMHO. As it stands now (in some places), I can be assigned a trip, complete it at, say, 9pm, go to sleep at midnight, and be woken up by a phone call at 7am telling me to go back to sleep because I have a trip at 5pm flying through the night, ending at 7am. That's ludicrous. The pop up going from TEB-HPN will just have to find a crew that's on a schedule which matches their own.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You keep saying that, but then you say that using defined duty periods would be "terrible". As far as I can tell, your argument boils down to "the intended meaning of the reg is obviously what I say it is". I don't think that's obvious at all.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
It's up above. Also quoted up above.
Do you have access to some LOI the rest of us don't? As of now we have two competing ways of interpreting the intention of the word "prospective", and nothing supporting either from the Chief Council. As far as I can tell, you're attempting to accord some special status to your reading of the word that it's not obvious it deserves.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
I'm in agreement with Dugie here. What you described is perfectly legal provided that at show time you can determine you won't be fatigued for the assignment. For me that would be impossible and I would turn that trip down, and I suspect the customer would then go find someone who has a crew that matches their needs.
Me personally, I advocate what Boris and Inverted are saying and have defined duty periods and an appropriate number of crews if you want your aircraft to stand up 24/7.
Legal AND safe/smart is the key here.
Me personally, I advocate what Boris and Inverted are saying and have defined duty periods and an appropriate number of crews if you want your aircraft to stand up 24/7.
Legal AND safe/smart is the key here.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
I was saying being on call for days on end only to be put in rest for 10 hours before show time would be a terrible way to run a charter outfit, ie you could never capture a pop up or rarely be able to.
You have the exact same access to all the LOIs from the Chief Council I do. Show me one that says prospective rest must be given at least X hours prior to the rest period.
Read what I've written again very carefully. I've never said nor advocated for anything other that stating an on call type schedule wouldn't work very well in the charter world. I want a defined duty period.
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You have the exact same access to all the LOIs from the Chief Council I do. Show me one that says prospective rest must be given at least X hours prior to the rest period.
Read what I've written again very carefully. I've never said nor advocated for anything other that stating an on call type schedule wouldn't work very well in the charter world. I want a defined duty period.
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Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Yes, I read it. Show me one where it says it needn't be.
D