Pan Am students whine too much!
- Thread starter thinkpeoplethink
- Start date
Tired
New Member
Nothing like spending a long night Saturday night on the internet...can I have your life?
Not.
Panampilot is correct. You can't have it both ways, if you don't want to fly three times a day to make up for a flight you missed then don't complain when the program takes to long. Also, think about this. They already have your money. They'll actually make MORE money if you go through the program slower. You all will think I'm full of it, but if you think it through you can figure out why it's better if you go slower.
Not.
Panampilot is correct. You can't have it both ways, if you don't want to fly three times a day to make up for a flight you missed then don't complain when the program takes to long. Also, think about this. They already have your money. They'll actually make MORE money if you go through the program slower. You all will think I'm full of it, but if you think it through you can figure out why it's better if you go slower.
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
Who said when I was there, I didn't want to fly 3 times a day? Which by the way, never ever happened. I will grant you that was over a year ago, so perhaps that has changed now. But, personally I think 3 flights a day without hardly any briefing is a great way for the school to make money. They are sending the student up for the most expensive thing possible, as much as possible.
panampilot
New Member
The whole point of this argument is Pan Am wants students get an accelerated program. That's what was advertised, that's what they bought. The focus hasn't been on acceleration but more on quality of training. That is going to change. Like I stated before they want to maintain the quality but improve on the acceleration. So, if you miss a flight one day for whatever reason, plan on making that flight up the following day, on top of whatever else was scheduled for you. People are going to complain and bitch, but this is what acceleration means. Now, to expound on the whole briefing time thing I will say this. I understand your indignation about paying for briefing time and not receiving it. Every instructor knows they are supposed to give brief time before and after each mission. Now, Pan Am doesn't have the time to babysit every instructor and make sure they do this. I believe it is the responsibility of every student to talk to the chief flight instructor or one of his assistants if you are not satisified with the training you are getting from your instructor. The students are the customers and they need to speak up when they aren't happy. As a flight instructor myself, I pride myself on giving both a pre-flight and a post-flight briefing. Enough said.
dakovich
Well-Known Member
just want to respond to the original reason "think" posted in the first place; just want to say i understand the type of people you were refering to. when i was there there were a bunch of people who just didn't work hard at all and always complained about the school. many cruised on over to Aviator and did act like it was the greatest place to be, but having seen how those certain people operated i never had any remorse for them. you've just got to understand that even those who do well and work hard at the school also have had problems.
thinkpeoplethink
New Member
Finally, someone who knows the meaning of the word "accelerated". Well done, panampilot!
thinkpeoplethink
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
...you've just got to understand that even those who do well and work hard at the school also have had problems
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point Dakovich. I wouldn't begin to think that the hard workers don't have problems. However, some people (you know who you are) have gotten exactly what their 50% of maximum effort could afford them -- failure and resentment.
...you've just got to understand that even those who do well and work hard at the school also have had problems
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point Dakovich. I wouldn't begin to think that the hard workers don't have problems. However, some people (you know who you are) have gotten exactly what their 50% of maximum effort could afford them -- failure and resentment.
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
I've just never had this simple question answered. With all of the "accelerated training" at Pan Am how come students at FBOs around Phoenix always finish their ratings faster?
And determination of the students at Pan Am was never one of the problems. Many of us moved across the country to attend Pan Am and train full time.
And determination of the students at Pan Am was never one of the problems. Many of us moved across the country to attend Pan Am and train full time.
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
This still sounds like common sense. I don't see what the argument (or to use a more delicate word, debate) is all about. We all know that if a student doesn't like the environment, more than likely, he/she will fail. On the other hand, if he/she likes the environment, more than likely, he/she will pass. C'mon fellas!!!!!!!!!!!!
thinkpeoplethink
New Member
Well mavmb1, the most probable reason students finish faster at FBOs is that the typical student at an FBO is one with very limited financial support. I know folks that have emptied their savings accounts at FBOs trying to get their ratings and such. Some of them do finish faster perhaps because the motivation is more pure. An FBO student with dwindling savings can appreciate the importance of hard work and intense studying. The FBO student is going to get in and get out. Conversely, many (not all) Pan Am students are handed an $80,000 loan and come to Pan Am thinking the school is going to "give them their ratings" (instead of them "earning their ratings"). They expect to waltz right on thru and have no appreciation for the amount of money that's at stake largely because the money at stake was never theirs at all. Those students with mommy and daddy paying their way can be even worse off.
Like I've said before, Pan Am doesn't owe us anything; we owe it to ourselves.
TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
I think I'll stir things up a little, and post this bit of news I was told last week. Pan Am @ Fort Pierce is moving the A.C.E. program. It is now to be taken after the route program, and before commercial single. I was really looking forward to earning my commercial license, but now I'll have to wait a little longer. (The reason for moving up ACE I was told, is so that the CRM techniques learned through the CRM class and route, can be carried on into the ACE program, where CRM is very important.)
The Turk.
The Turk.
G
Guest
Guest
Why don't we just start with the ACE program and work backwards. then we can guarantee that the students are able to handle airline style training before getting their ratings.
ananoman
New Member
I would agree with Chunk, the only reason that they are moving up ACE is to get more cash out of their students. Most people who are pissed off at a school will at least finish whatever stage they are currently working on before they leave. Unless something sucks really bad it is not worth going to another school half way through your instrument rating, etc. I do not go to Pan Am, but I wonder if they had people leaving after getting their commercial to do CFI somewhere else and decided to move ACE to get more money out of the students before they leave.
I read the earlier post about flying 3 times a day with some amusement. I never want my students to fly more than twice a day. I usually only do this during commercial maneuvers when I will do a dual flight in the AM and then give the student a break and send them out to try them solo. Solo cross countries are another good time to do 2 lessons, by combining 2 three hr cc flights. Flying 3 times a day is a waste of money. By the third flight the student will be tired and will not get anything out of the flight. Although Pan Am will not make more cash by doing this (maybe a little due to unsat lessons from fatigue) they up their cash flow and make the short term #'s look better.
I do not think Pan Am students whine too much, but I do think that you are paying too much money to be pissed off. If your school sucks so bad and you are so unhappy, leave. FSI is but a short drive north and I have not heard many students here whining about the school.
I read the earlier post about flying 3 times a day with some amusement. I never want my students to fly more than twice a day. I usually only do this during commercial maneuvers when I will do a dual flight in the AM and then give the student a break and send them out to try them solo. Solo cross countries are another good time to do 2 lessons, by combining 2 three hr cc flights. Flying 3 times a day is a waste of money. By the third flight the student will be tired and will not get anything out of the flight. Although Pan Am will not make more cash by doing this (maybe a little due to unsat lessons from fatigue) they up their cash flow and make the short term #'s look better.
I do not think Pan Am students whine too much, but I do think that you are paying too much money to be pissed off. If your school sucks so bad and you are so unhappy, leave. FSI is but a short drive north and I have not heard many students here whining about the school.
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Well mavmb1, the most probable reason students finish faster at FBOs is that the typical student at an FBO is one with very limited financial support. I know folks that have emptied their savings accounts at FBOs trying to get their ratings and such. Some of them do finish faster perhaps because the motivation is more pure. An FBO student with dwindling savings can appreciate the importance of hard work and intense studying. The FBO student is going to get in and get out. Conversely, many (not all) Pan Am students are handed an $80,000 loan and come to Pan Am thinking the school is going to "give them their ratings" (instead of them "earning their ratings"). Those students with mommy and daddy paying their way can be even worse off. <img src="http://jetcareers.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Like I've said before, Pan Am doesn't owe us anything; we owe it to ourselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a lot of blanket statements about people and students you don't even know. Is that the best answer you can give me for my question? Really?
But really I want to comment on this quote from you, " They expect to waltz right on thru and have no appreciation for the amount of money that's at stake largely because the money at stake was never theirs at all."
Well it's not yours either! So why is it immediately put into Pan Am's bank account and then never returned on time!
Students could put their loan money in a savings account, so they can make some interest off of it instead of Pan Am!
Well mavmb1, the most probable reason students finish faster at FBOs is that the typical student at an FBO is one with very limited financial support. I know folks that have emptied their savings accounts at FBOs trying to get their ratings and such. Some of them do finish faster perhaps because the motivation is more pure. An FBO student with dwindling savings can appreciate the importance of hard work and intense studying. The FBO student is going to get in and get out. Conversely, many (not all) Pan Am students are handed an $80,000 loan and come to Pan Am thinking the school is going to "give them their ratings" (instead of them "earning their ratings"). Those students with mommy and daddy paying their way can be even worse off. <img src="http://jetcareers.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Like I've said before, Pan Am doesn't owe us anything; we owe it to ourselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a lot of blanket statements about people and students you don't even know. Is that the best answer you can give me for my question? Really?
But really I want to comment on this quote from you, " They expect to waltz right on thru and have no appreciation for the amount of money that's at stake largely because the money at stake was never theirs at all."
Well it's not yours either! So why is it immediately put into Pan Am's bank account and then never returned on time!
perpetual
Well-Known Member
Pan Am....
Horrible school managment, Great Aircraft....
You are nothing but a Number at Pan Am.
You dont control your own Schedule.
You do not have the right to determine your own schedule.
You do not have the right to fly "other" aircraft outside of the school without permission from Pan Am.
You WILL waste Thousands of Dollars on "Breif Costs"
You will learn that most are LAZY and RELY on the Garmin 430.
You will pay an EXTREMELY LARGE sum of CASH for Ground schools.
You will goto Ground school that has NO CORRELATION to what you are CURRENTLY doing in the actual aircraft.
You will Pay For "programs" that are Unecessary.
You will be the Customer, yet not treated as so.
You will goto Simulator sessions that are usless, of which cost as much as actual flight time. (time that could be spent actually obtaining credible flight experience.)
You will Pay for and wear "uniforms", an unecessary Item as well as cost factor.
You WILL purchase a great deal of Books, of which are overpriced, as well run the risk of being obsolete by the time you need to study them.
You will pay an EXTREMELY large amount of money for on campus houseing, for sharing a room, as well as limited facilities. This of course applies to only those living on campus.
You will experience disorder with the curriculum as each sudden change to either "policy" or the curriculum as you are a student.
When you decide that you have been spending too much time/money as well as dealing with Pan Am politics/theiving and you conform to their contract,.. They will not hold up to their own deals.
Avoid Pan Am:
Look to Flight safety, Ariben Aviator, ATP, or a good FBO with a no BS walk and talk attitude.
You will save Money, and gain a better knowledge.
Horrible school managment, Great Aircraft....
You are nothing but a Number at Pan Am.
You dont control your own Schedule.
You do not have the right to determine your own schedule.
You do not have the right to fly "other" aircraft outside of the school without permission from Pan Am.
You WILL waste Thousands of Dollars on "Breif Costs"
You will learn that most are LAZY and RELY on the Garmin 430.
You will pay an EXTREMELY LARGE sum of CASH for Ground schools.
You will goto Ground school that has NO CORRELATION to what you are CURRENTLY doing in the actual aircraft.
You will Pay For "programs" that are Unecessary.
You will be the Customer, yet not treated as so.
You will goto Simulator sessions that are usless, of which cost as much as actual flight time. (time that could be spent actually obtaining credible flight experience.)
You will Pay for and wear "uniforms", an unecessary Item as well as cost factor.
You WILL purchase a great deal of Books, of which are overpriced, as well run the risk of being obsolete by the time you need to study them.
You will pay an EXTREMELY large amount of money for on campus houseing, for sharing a room, as well as limited facilities. This of course applies to only those living on campus.
You will experience disorder with the curriculum as each sudden change to either "policy" or the curriculum as you are a student.
When you decide that you have been spending too much time/money as well as dealing with Pan Am politics/theiving and you conform to their contract,.. They will not hold up to their own deals.
Avoid Pan Am:
Look to Flight safety, Ariben Aviator, ATP, or a good FBO with a no BS walk and talk attitude.
You will save Money, and gain a better knowledge.
chunk75
Well-Known Member
This post reminded me of that line in Top Gun (I know, I know...only geeks quote Top Gun. I declared the aircraft a no-top-gun-zone when flying with my old instructor).
After listening to the Air Boss scream about Mavericks' low pass that spilled coffee on him, Viper says...
"Well, that'll just about cover the flybys" without saying another word.
Well, that'll just about cover Pan Am.
[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am....
Horrible school managment, Great Aircraft....
You are nothing but a Number at Pan Am.
You dont control your own Schedule.
You do not have the right to determine your own schedule.
You do not have the right to fly "other" aircraft outside of the school without permission from Pan Am.
You WILL waste Thousands of Dollars on "Breif Costs"
You will learn that most are LAZY and RELY on the Garmin 430.
You will pay an EXTREMELY LARGE sum of CASH for Ground schools.
You will goto Ground school that has NO CORRELATION to what you are CURRENTLY doing in the actual aircraft.
You will Pay For "programs" that are Unecessary.
You will be the Customer, yet not treated as so.
You will goto Simulator sessions that are usless, of which cost as much as actual flight time. (time that could be spent actually obtaining credible flight experience.)
You will Pay for and wear "uniforms", an unecessary Item as well as cost factor.
You WILL purchase a great deal of Books, of which are overpriced, as well run the risk of being obsolete by the time you need to study them.
You will pay an EXTREMELY large amount of money for on campus houseing, for sharing a room, as well as limited facilities. This of course applies to only those living on campus.
You will experience disorder with the curriculum as each sudden change to either "policy" or the curriculum as you are a student.
When you decide that you have been spending too much time/money as well as dealing with Pan Am politics/theiving and you conform to their contract,.. They will not hold up to their own deals.
Avoid Pan Am:
Look to Flight safety, Ariben Aviator, ATP, or a good FBO with a no BS walk and talk attitude.
You will save Money, and gain a better knowledge.
[/ QUOTE ]
After listening to the Air Boss scream about Mavericks' low pass that spilled coffee on him, Viper says...
"Well, that'll just about cover the flybys" without saying another word.
Well, that'll just about cover Pan Am.
[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am....
Horrible school managment, Great Aircraft....
You are nothing but a Number at Pan Am.
You dont control your own Schedule.
You do not have the right to determine your own schedule.
You do not have the right to fly "other" aircraft outside of the school without permission from Pan Am.
You WILL waste Thousands of Dollars on "Breif Costs"
You will learn that most are LAZY and RELY on the Garmin 430.
You will pay an EXTREMELY LARGE sum of CASH for Ground schools.
You will goto Ground school that has NO CORRELATION to what you are CURRENTLY doing in the actual aircraft.
You will Pay For "programs" that are Unecessary.
You will be the Customer, yet not treated as so.
You will goto Simulator sessions that are usless, of which cost as much as actual flight time. (time that could be spent actually obtaining credible flight experience.)
You will Pay for and wear "uniforms", an unecessary Item as well as cost factor.
You WILL purchase a great deal of Books, of which are overpriced, as well run the risk of being obsolete by the time you need to study them.
You will pay an EXTREMELY large amount of money for on campus houseing, for sharing a room, as well as limited facilities. This of course applies to only those living on campus.
You will experience disorder with the curriculum as each sudden change to either "policy" or the curriculum as you are a student.
When you decide that you have been spending too much time/money as well as dealing with Pan Am politics/theiving and you conform to their contract,.. They will not hold up to their own deals.
Avoid Pan Am:
Look to Flight safety, Ariben Aviator, ATP, or a good FBO with a no BS walk and talk attitude.
You will save Money, and gain a better knowledge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Chunk,
We all know that you are a huge spokesman for FSI and do all that you can to promote your school. I'm very happy that you have so much school pride. But, I don't think that you have the experience necessary to make drerogatory statements like "that just about covers PanAm." All you know about PanAm has come from this website and hearsay from some disgruntled students. You have no idea what "just about covers PanAm".
I could say some of the same things about FSI, or any other flight school. Every flight school has issues and every flight school has unhappy students. Several former students on this board are unhappy and very vocal and make it seem like everyone is unhappy at PanAm. I, for one, can tell you that I am very happy with my choice to move across the country and attend PanAm. And there are many, many more students that I see everyday that are happy PanAm students.
What I think just above covers PanAm: great instruction, new and well-maintained airplanes, expensive, trained to use GPS as a backup (a DE says we should use the Garmin 430 more), sim sessions that teach me procedures and techniques at half the price of the plane, a great experience...
We all know that you are a huge spokesman for FSI and do all that you can to promote your school. I'm very happy that you have so much school pride. But, I don't think that you have the experience necessary to make drerogatory statements like "that just about covers PanAm." All you know about PanAm has come from this website and hearsay from some disgruntled students. You have no idea what "just about covers PanAm".
I could say some of the same things about FSI, or any other flight school. Every flight school has issues and every flight school has unhappy students. Several former students on this board are unhappy and very vocal and make it seem like everyone is unhappy at PanAm. I, for one, can tell you that I am very happy with my choice to move across the country and attend PanAm. And there are many, many more students that I see everyday that are happy PanAm students.
What I think just above covers PanAm: great instruction, new and well-maintained airplanes, expensive, trained to use GPS as a backup (a DE says we should use the Garmin 430 more), sim sessions that teach me procedures and techniques at half the price of the plane, a great experience...
chunk75
Well-Known Member
panamguy,
Why don't you expend your energy in response to perpetual? Is it because you can't refute what he says? It's not hearsay, if you hear it firstperson. I know quite a few xpan Am-ers.
BTW, you say every school has disgruntled students....how many do you see in FSI's board compared to every other school here? That's what I thought. There were two people in the past month who said changes were needed but overall loved the school. Before that you'll be looking a LONG time. I've been on this board a long time and I can count the number of negative comments made about FSI by FSI students on JC on one hand.
Chunk
Why don't you expend your energy in response to perpetual? Is it because you can't refute what he says? It's not hearsay, if you hear it firstperson. I know quite a few xpan Am-ers.
BTW, you say every school has disgruntled students....how many do you see in FSI's board compared to every other school here? That's what I thought. There were two people in the past month who said changes were needed but overall loved the school. Before that you'll be looking a LONG time. I've been on this board a long time and I can count the number of negative comments made about FSI by FSI students on JC on one hand.
Chunk
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