🦈💜
All dragon~
I am very, very specifically referring to US ATC. (And Canada, though I have less experience there)
Oh SFO tower
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
- Start date
roundout
VNAV monitor
The problem with this is you brief it, it changes, yeah you talked about it at the gate but you need a couple seconds to make sure the plane is going to do what you briefed 30 minutes ago. There’s a checklist to go through at my place. You can physically make the changes in about 45 seconds but you can’t do the checklist and actually read and verify stuff on it in that time.
Expectation bias is a biiiiiich.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
This thread is bonkers.
Starts with a guy with a serious DAL hate boner who somehow through obsessive anti-Delta googling found an ATC clip in which…basically nothing happens.
No loss of separation, no one almost died.
I get that the controller was trying to get as many planes out as efficiently as possible. But that doesn’t always work. And her attitude kind of sucked.
It reminds me of a flight into SLC where center left us at 300 with “anticipate Xxxx at 250 and XXXXXft”. We acknowledged with “we’ll do our best to be ready” and slowed as much as we felt comfortable with.
When we got the descent clearance, it was going to be a 4500’/min requirement, and within 30s I told the controller we were unable to make the crossing and speed. He got pissed.
Sorry my dude, physics sometimes dictates.
Starts with a guy with a serious DAL hate boner who somehow through obsessive anti-Delta googling found an ATC clip in which…basically nothing happens.
No loss of separation, no one almost died.
I get that the controller was trying to get as many planes out as efficiently as possible. But that doesn’t always work. And her attitude kind of sucked.
It reminds me of a flight into SLC where center left us at 300 with “anticipate Xxxx at 250 and XXXXXft”. We acknowledged with “we’ll do our best to be ready” and slowed as much as we felt comfortable with.
When we got the descent clearance, it was going to be a 4500’/min requirement, and within 30s I told the controller we were unable to make the crossing and speed. He got pissed.
Sorry my dude, physics sometimes dictates.
This, I think, is a fair synopsis.
I have to admit, it was pretty fun! I'm glad it got to blossom and a good discussion.
Her attitude seemed fine until Delta decided to give an unnecessary snark comment.
I'd always say "keep it off the radio", but I'm also the one who embarassingly went on a JFK OPS rant on the radio about "Sisyphean effort to get off the gate" or was it "I think I just saw Sisyphus push a rock uphill past B14" I can't remember.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
If you’re keeping score, which is silly, she led with the snark.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Not really. She was correct, so you aren’t ready. Exit the runway.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I have several controllers at SFO who I consider personal friends. I suspect I might know who this one is although I am not certain. I am going to side with the crew on this one, don't line up an airplane that doesn't have numbers, on an active runway used for takeoffs and landings, and although the ATIS says have numbers for both, once you get assigned a runway, you brief and taxi to that runway. They changed runways on them super last minute which isn't cool at all. I can send for numbers all day long but it still takes time to reprogram the box, rebrief, run checklists and make sure you aren't rushing the operation. With all the runway incursions happening across the country right now, rushing a crew onto an active runway IMHO is an erious problem and if I was that captain, I would be freaking furious, and I would be running that up the flag pole with at least an ASAP.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
GMAFB. Although I do find fault with the Delta crew for accepting a line up and wait clearance, and for the CA for making a remark, due to a miscommunication they thought they had 5 mins. Who cares if they said 2 mins, she said 5 and unfortunately that is what they were basing it on. Just shut your month and move on. Nothing good comes from losing your temper.
Rosstafari
Likes tacos
Especially in SFO. You know they’ve got QA looking at them more closely with the incursions over the least couple years.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
But you already did brief the items that didn’t change, and the items that will change. So now it's even better. Right?
That's because people are going heads down at the wrong time - crossing a runway. But SFO and SEA where you might go from 28L to R and from 16L to C? No brainer, easy to do.
I don't see how she rushed them to the runway? She clearly said if you need time, then hold short of 28R. The ball was fully in the pilots court, no?
She was moving her traffic and had an expectation of a given time as passed by the Delta crew. The crew should’ve declined a line up and wait instead of insisting on it after a hold short was offered, that would’ve halted the whole situation right there. The crew ended up rushing themselves unnecessarily. It goes back to the whole “set the parking brake” idea. Don’t rush, but also don’t allow yourself to get rushed, either by ATC or self-imposed pressure.
It really goes back to basics, AIM 4-3-14b:
“The tower controller will consider that pilots of turbine-powered aircraft are ready for takeoff when they reach the runway or warm-up block unless advised otherwise.”
The last 3 words are key. If you aren’t ready, say so. Don’t rush, and don’t allow yourself to get rushed. By anyone, including yourself.
To an extent, this way of thinking includes ATC also. Sometimes, trying to surge-launch aircraft can create a square corner. It may have been more prudent to not even offer the lineup and wait, or even rescind it, when Delta advised that they weren’t ready. Just issue them a hold short until they are ready. Sure, the ATIS says what it says, but here they are right here, right now, with the situation as it is. Kind of doesn’t matter what was in the past.
Best part of this situation is that it turned out to be no harm, no foul. But some good lessons to takeaway, on both ends, as it does appear there were time expectations and assumptions on both ends that weren’t fully communicated in either direction.
“The tower controller will consider that pilots of turbine-powered aircraft are ready for takeoff when they reach the runway or warm-up block unless advised otherwise.”
The last 3 words are key. If you aren’t ready, say so. Don’t rush, and don’t allow yourself to get rushed. By anyone, including yourself.
To an extent, this way of thinking includes ATC also. Sometimes, trying to surge-launch aircraft can create a square corner. It may have been more prudent to not even offer the lineup and wait, or even rescind it, when Delta advised that they weren’t ready. Just issue them a hold short until they are ready. Sure, the ATIS says what it says, but here they are right here, right now, with the situation as it is. Kind of doesn’t matter what was in the past.
Best part of this situation is that it turned out to be no harm, no foul. But some good lessons to takeaway, on both ends, as it does appear there were time expectations and assumptions on both ends that weren’t fully communicated in either direction.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The sass from a Bay Area Controller (San Carlos).
"I expect more from a Twin Cessna pilot, I'm sorry!"
Ouch
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPaMjSUSn1Y
"I expect more from a Twin Cessna pilot, I'm sorry!"
Ouch
Does the controller know that Jerry flies in the sky?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
That's gonna be my new insult from now on: Just go into a cafe and ask 5 pilots...
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
Jesus CC imagine taking the controller side on this because of your inflated ego and hatred for a specific airline. The lady clearly was looking to argue. It’s a cringe audio to listen to from controller as the crew was way more respectful and patient than most would be.
Sorry we aren’t all the same level of aviator as you for briefing every runway and getting your numbers switched in a flash! Then again, you probably roasted Delta for briefing too long or too many options!
Never ends! This lady and you probably would get along! Blind date!!!!
Sorry we aren’t all the same level of aviator as you for briefing every runway and getting your numbers switched in a flash! Then again, you probably roasted Delta for briefing too long or too many options!
Never ends! This lady and you probably would get along! Blind date!!!!
