Oh SFO tower

[MikeD]

If this is @Cherokee_Cruiser ’e best attempt at dunking on Delta, he just needs to give up.

Don’t take the runway if you’re not ready.

Don’t tell someone they have traffic 5mins out, have them line up and wait, and then freak out way before that.

I think for ATC, that the 5 minute time hack started when the clearance was given to line up and wait before they’d even crossed 28L for 28R, as did the 2 minute clock counting on their being ready. Whereas it seems Delta was seemingly expecting 2 minutes to start at line up and wait…..since 2 minutes had already elapsed before they even got to 28R after accepting the runway lineup clearance. By the time Delta stopped at lineup and wait, the traffic was probably 2.5 or so minutes final….hence their perception of only having been given 30 seconds.

 

[derg]

I was based at SFO for a long time. The local controllers are top notch, IMO.

However, I am not a proponent of "localisms".

I might see SFO twice a year at most so there's no ability to have a 100% familiar feel for the airport the way a person that is based there would develop.

LAX, even with the crush of operations going from T2/T2/TBIT and departing off the north side was a piece of cake for me because I had the repetition with the operation, had an intiution about when they're going to send us to the south side and a plan of attack.

Plan for the worst, a northside departure. Lets start both engines, get everything done, do the cabin PA so when we call, all we have is a before takeoff check and the cabin confirmation. If we get the south side, I'm going to taxi like American during contract negotiations so we're smooth jazz all the way down to 25R then we don't get in a time crunch and create our own emergency.

There's no amount of company pages that can replace experience and repetition at an airport. The crew in question, I assume got assigned one runway, then switched to another at the last minute and made a poor estimate on how much time they needed.

From the jumpseat, I would debrief the reasoning behind taking the runway in the first place.

ATIS or not things still take time to accomplish and always have unforeseen operational pressures. I'm disturbed why the controller chose to scold the crew on the radio because it doesn't accomplish anything and does not send a message to anyone.

 

[derg]

I think for ATC, that the 5 minute time hack started when the clearance was given to line up and wait before they’d even crossed 28L for 28R, as did the 2 minute clock counting on their being ready. Whereas it seems Delta was seemingly expecting 2 minutes to start at line up and wait…..since 2 minutes had already elapsed before they even got to 28R after accepting the runway lineup clearance. By the time Delta stopped at lineup and wait, the traffic was probably 2.5 or so minutes final….hence their perception of only having been given 30 seconds.

Part of mine is "We'll need (X amount of) (minutes/seconds) on the runway. Usually when it's in icing conditions and some other elements necessitating a run-up.

 

[🦈💜]

I don't see how these two line up. It appears to me that the claim is that it is less "hard/different" to change runways when they're of "similar length" and have "similar engine out procedures". Like I have to run the numbers for the new runway, whether it's exactly the same length or 6000 ft. shorter. And I will brief the entire engine-out procedure whether it's exactly the same or not. It's in the FOM, I'm pretty sure. Probably in bold. Probably for good reason.

Likely no configuration changes, no resetting the heading bug, typically the same departure, likely the same (or similar) performance numbers, etc.

And yes, obviously any professional pilot who is actually trying to do their job is going to brief the entire engine out procedure. What he's saying is brief that procedure for both runways when told to expect both, not just the runway you'd prefer.

At the gate, not while lined up.
I'm 100% confident that he's not saying he violates procedure just to get on the roll quicker. Again, I don't know what you fly or how your manuals look compared to mine (or ... well, my previous company's), so some may be lost in translation, but what he's saying makes perfect sense to me.

 

[scooter2525]

However, I am not a proponent of "localisms".

what’s frustrating is when ATC has this assumption that the crew has knowledge of those localisms.

 

[derg]

what’s frustrating is when ATC has this assumption that the crew has knowledge of those localisms.

Yes!

SLC for example.

"Oh, don't put in the missed approach altitude"

"We're doing an... ILS approach and the vis is meh"

"Well, tehre's a VFR corridor at the end of the runway at (whatever)"

[digs through the company pages/company remarks/NOTAMS, finds nothing"

"Oh, everyone knows that"

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't see how these two line up. It appears to me that the claim is that it is less "hard/different" to change runways when they're of "similar length" and have "similar engine out procedures". Like I have to run the numbers for the new runway, whether it's exactly the same length or 6000 ft. shorter. And I will brief the entire engine-out procedure whether it's exactly the same or not. It's in the FOM, I'm pretty sure. Probably in bold. Probably for good reason.

No, Acro was right.

Here's how the "Consideration" part of the brief would go, while at the gate as part of the T-P-C brief.

" Consideration is a potential runway change to 28R. If so, MCP stays the same - 284 heading. Accel height 800 baro stays the same, as does the VNAV accel height 787. SID first fix and altitude stay the same. Both runways have the same engine out we already briefed. Flaps are the same for both runways, the only difference I see are the different V speeds, and the different trim setting that will come in once you load 28R numbers. "

Now we are on the same page in case we get a runway change to 28R. We've already hit literally every item on the 6 change triangle items.

The FO will still load the new runway, we'll still verify the data, and run ALL 6 change triangle items. But we've already discussed those changes before and knew it was coming.

This way, yeah I'll be ready in 2 minutes.

 

[SurferLucas]

Yes!

SLC for example.

"Oh, don't put in the missed approach altitude"

"We're doing an... ILS approach and the vis is meh"

"Well, tehre's a VFR corridor at the end of the runway at (whatever)"

[digs through the company pages/company remarks/NOTAMS, finds nothing"

"Oh, everyone knows that"

SLC is “peculiar”

 

[Boris Badenov]

What he's saying is brief that procedure for both runways when told to expect both, not just the runway you'd prefer.

Nope, sorry. You can brief both at the gate if you want to. IMHO, that's not a great procedure because you're going to do it again, anyway, if it changes. The C/As I fly with who I like most (that's not fair, the ones whose procedures I most agree with) minimize the gate-briefing, because that creates expectations, and those things'll kill ya. Runway changes, it's right back to square one, more or less. That's what our checklist tells us to do, and I think it's right to do so. No "welp it's basically the same, just gonna go up to 5, turn right, RNAV VNAV Armed let's go!" This stuff is written, if not in blood, then certainly in Certificate-Action-Ink.

 

[🦈💜]

However, I am not a proponent of "localisms".

(Just for clarity, I meant local as in local controller, not "someone who is from here.")

I might see SFO twice a year at most so there's no ability to have a 100% familiar feel for the airport the way a person that is based there would develop.

Completely agree. But in SFO:

SFO ATIS INFO Z 2156Z. 28014KT 10SM FEW004 BKN200 19/11 A2996 (TWO NINER NINER SIX). SIMULTANEOUS CHARTED VISUAL FLIGHT PROCEDURES IN USE. LNDG RWYS 28L, 28R. DEPG RWYS 28L, 28R. NOTAMS... RWYS 1R, 19L CLSD, RWYS 01L, 19R CLSD. TWY B CLSD BETWEEN TWY F1, TWY M, TWY C CLSD BETWEEN TWY E, RWY 19L, TWY G CLSD BETWEEN TWY A, RWY 1R, TWY H CLSD BETWEEN TWY A, RWY 1R. SFO VORTAC OTS. PAEW ADJ RIGHT SIDE RWY 28R. BIRD ACTV IN VCY OF AP. DEPG ACFT GET NMBRS AND BRIEF BOTH RWYS 28L AND 28R. ...ADVS YOU HAVE INFO Z.

It's the same thing as ORD, or LAX (we came out of the united gates practically at the end of 25R, and sometimes we'd be told to expect 24L, come to the top, and get a taxi instruction for 25R.) The only challenge is that with 28L/28R, the point of assignment is basically at the end of the runway, which isn't great.

LAX, even with the crush of operations going from T2/T2/TBIT and departing off the north side was a piece of cake for me because I had the repetition with the operation, had an intiution about when they're going to send us to the south side and a plan of attack.

Plan for the worst, a northside departure. Lets start both engines, get everything done, do the cabin PA so when we call, all we have is a before takeoff check and the cabin confirmation. If we get the south side, I'm going to taxi like American during contract negotiations so we're smooth jazz all the way down to 25R then we don't get in a time crunch and create our own emergency.

There's no amount of company pages that can replace experience and repetition at an airport.

Totally, and I felt the same way about SFO, LAX and ORD.

The crew in question, I assume got assigned one runway,

I will say that you don't get assigned a runway when SFO is running 28 ops. They're pretty explicit that you're going to get either 28L or 28R. I don't love that system, believe me. I think you should get some heads up on what to expect, and the controllers don't really understand what goes into the procedures for changing the runway. That said, based on the ATIS, it shouldn't be a surprise at the end when you're assigned 28R.

then switched to another at the last minute and made a poor estimate on how much time they needed.

From the jumpseat, I would debrief the reasoning behind taking the runway in the first place.

I agree totally.

ATIS or not things still take time to accomplish and always have unforeseen operational pressures. I'm disturbed why the controller chose to scold the crew on the radio because it doesn't accomplish anything and does not send a message to anyone.

I mean, I'll be honest, Delta is the one who picked a fight with the surly "Next time give us more than 30 seconds" snark, in my opinion.

I would definitely not suggest pilots get into a verbal battle with a controller, because they will eat your lunch and make you feel bad about it.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Nope, sorry. You can brief both at the gate if you want to. IMHO, that's not a great procedure because you're going to do it again, anyway, if it changes. The C/As I fly with who I like most (that's not fair, the ones whose procedures I most agree with) minimize the gate-briefing, because that creates expectations, and those things'll kill ya. Runway changes, it's right back to square one, more or less. That's what our checklist tells us to do, and I think it's right to do so. No "welp it's basically the same, just gonna go up to 5, turn right, RNAV VNAV Armed let's go!" This stuff is written, if not in blood, then certainly in Certificate-Action-Ink.

Well then you do your procedures. I'll do mine.

Can't count how many people in SEA and aren't ready for 16C. Sorry, that's also a professionalism thing. You SHOULD see that coming and be able to accommodate that.


28L and 28R on the 737? The data is gonna be virtually the same. I'll hit ALL the highlights as part of the Considerations brief. I expect the FO will load the box, we'll verify box looks correct, and the V speeds are correct, and the trim is correct, and run the change triangle item. Everything else is literally the same - as we BRIEFED it already. Now we are just verifying it's correct and checklist. Easy enough, done.

 

[poser765]

Would have been a bit comical if after all of that she gave them Twenty Eight Left again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I’ve…I’ve been there.

 

[ASpilot2be]

If an ATIS tells me to brief two different runways, it can pound sand. I will get numbers for both runways and be prepared for a runway change. But I will only brief one runway at a time.

 

[MikeD]

(Just for clarity, I meant local as in local controller, not "someone who is from here.")

Agreed.

For for those that aren’t aware of the nomenclature, tower controllers are referred to as local controllers.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Well then you do your procedures. I'll do mine.

Did you forget that we aren't talking about your procedures, or mine? I'm going to go ALL THE WAY out of the limb and suggest that you don't have the foggiest idea of what Delta procedures are. But you weighed in anyway, as usual.

 

[nabbyfan]

Ive never worked Tower, only ARTCC, but I always try to avoid getting into it with pilots like this on frequency. Unkey, start berating them and calling them an idiot if you want, then key back up and kill em with kindness. I have lost my temper a few times on guys, but it’s never worth it. I'm not going to win any awards for showing that guy that hes an idiot, not me, all thats going to happen is im going to get in trouble. Imagine that flight has an issue later on, they listen to the tapes, and hear me being a complete toolbag to the guy. Just not a good look for ATC, IMO.

If crews could hear what we say about them immediately after unkeying the mic, wed all be fired. Im sure it goes the other way too.

If i can make it my whole career without ending up on one of these videos, it would be fantastic.

 

[MikeD]

Ive never worked Tower, only ARTCC, but I always try to avoid getting into it with pilots like this on frequency. Unkey, start berating them and calling them an idiot if you want, then key back up and kill em with kindness. I have lost my temper a few times on guys, but its never worth it. I'm not going to win any awards for showing that guy that hes an idiot, not me, all thats going to happen is im going to get in trouble. Imagine that flight has an issue later on, they listen to the tapes, and hear me being a complete toolbag to the guy. Just not a good luck for ATC, IMO.

If crews could hear what we say about them immediately after unkeying the mic, wed all be fired. Im sure it goes the other way too.

If i can make it my whole career without ending up on one of these videos, it would be fantastic.

Same applies to flight crews and unnecessary snark or absolute BS given to ATC on freq. Unprofessional and needlessly garbages up the frequency for no good reason. And yeah……something happens during the flight, and the tapes are listened to by a flight crew who had some radio altercation, the question will come up of what mindset were they in or were they distracted by X event that caused them to lose their cool at that time.

 

[🦈💜]

Ive never worked Tower, only ARTCC, but I always try to avoid getting into it with pilots like this on frequency. Unkey, start berating them and calling them an idiot if you want, then key back up and kill em with kindness. I have lost my temper a few times on guys, but its never worth it. I'm not going to win any awards for showing that guy that hes an idiot, not me, all thats going to happen is im going to get in trouble. Imagine that flight has an issue later on, they listen to the tapes, and hear me being a complete toolbag to the guy. Just not a good luck for ATC, IMO.

If crews could hear what we say about them immediately after unkeying the mic, wed all be fired. Im sure it goes the other way too.

I'll be completely honest, I have nothing but respect for ATC, and the absolute worst thing I'll say (or think) is "That guy/gal's not having a great day."

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'll be completely honest, I have nothing but respect for ATC, and the absolute worst thing I'll say (or think) is "That guy/gal's not having a great day."

Try China. Pepsi Challenge!

 

[🦈💜]

Did you forget that we aren't talking about your procedures, or mine? I'm going to go ALL THE WAY out of the limb and suggest that you don't have the foggiest idea of what Delta procedures are. But you weighed in anyway, as usual.

I'll grant you this. Reading this conversation, it's become obvious that different shops practice different approaches to this, which is totally fine.
So let's remove all of the "should have pre-briefed the runways for departure" and focus on the "hold short until your procedure is done, OR taxi clear when you've failed with an apology, OR EVEN JUST don't sass the controller who is just trying to make things work for you" part.