Oh Corpies LX

At least they checked out at the Pinnacle of their careers.
Ooof.
______________
I heard that story at some recurrent and my takeaway wasn't "don't take a CRJ to 410", but, "what could have been done better to enhance safety and success?

1. Better climb planning - requesting a slow climb to altitude and closely monitor engine performance. Thorough briefing of same including benchmarks for continue/abort decisions.
2. Thorough briefing and practice of restart procedures.
3. Taking as little fuel as possible to maximize available power.

But then it seems like this wasn't a planned excursion to the limits, but a couple of kids given the keys to a jet.

Fix
 
I don't understand the argument. Of course 121 is safer than 91/135. Are there outliers in there, yes. But as a general rule, 121 will be the safest.

That said, it isn't the pilots. It's the operating environment. And I don't mean the airports or the varied flying. It is less oversight, less structure, etc that allows for the bad apples to be, bad apples. The 121 environment simply doesn't allow it. Pinnacle was a great example. Two pilots who were safe in the structured 121 environment right up until that structure went away. An empty plane allowed for some bad behavior and we all know the result. Those 2 likely would have done the same thing, but earlier, in the 91 world.


Now that I've typed all that out, I'm going to go one step further. It should probably read 121=91 > 121=91=135 > 91 > 91 > 135 > 91

At 121 you pretty much know what you're going to get. At least at the large passenger operators. But there is entirely too much variety in 91 to lump it all together as unsafe. There are large Corporate operators. Multiple planes, dozen + pilots, FOQA, SMS, strict adherence to SOPs, full recurrent training every 6 months, and flying to big international airports. Then there are smaller corporate operators like mine. No FOQA going to small airports often, but a good focus on SMS and SOPs. There's 91k and there privately owned family accounts at the big management companies and accounts at small management companies. Some of those accounts may be on the 135 certificate at their management company and some are strictly 91. Then there are the big charter companies. Then there are completely self run one aircraft operations. 2 pilots with no oversight doing essentially whatever they want.

Obviously the pilots will have different amounts of oversight at all of these operators. Put the wrong pilots at the wrong operator and bad things will happen. This is true whether its 91, 121, or 135.
Agree with your premise that 121 is all held together by a formalized, dictatorial-regulatory environment that imposes some modicum of discipline, and sometimes, actual competence.

That said, 121 allows just as many, if not more, bad apples to inhabit its ranks as do 91 and 135. In 121, bad apples have a great deal of protection from poor health, lack of competence beyond the LCD, and just being seemingly impossibly horrible individuals.

In the absence of unions, doctors and lawyers, a 135 pilot's best protection is to be (or pretend to be) a good ol' boy. The irony in 135 is that the best pilots are usually the ones who get fired or quit ... precisely because they are the best pilots. As such, they just can't/won't abide BS. When they don't, they are deemed "not a team player" (read: a guy who will bend, break, or ignore rules for money).

In 121, operationally, the best pilots are not allowed to be any better than the the worst. The worst pilots are the ones who, while completely passionless, grossly overweight and out of shape, yet somehow sneak through medicals and then die of heart attacks sitting in their seats. Other examples include pilots who can't and won't do visual approaches. Still others include pilots who can't but will do non-precision approaches... right into the ground. Still others include all those "OH, Airline!" pilots who keep getting arrested for showing up still drunk instead of just hungover like a proper airline pilot.

Training and assessing individuals AS individuals is time consuming and expensive. Folks whose primary interest is the highest profit margin possible will almost NEVER engage in those individual-focused activities.
 
I don't understand the argument. Of course 121 is safer than 91/135. Are there outliers in there, yes. But as a general rule, 121 will be the safest.

That said, it isn't the pilots. It's the operating environment. And I don't mean the airports or the varied flying. It is less oversight, less structure, etc that allows for the bad apples to be, bad apples. The 121 environment simply doesn't allow it. Pinnacle was a great example. Two pilots who were safe in the structured 121 environment right up until that structure went away. An empty plane allowed for some bad behavior and we all know the result. Those 2 likely would have done the same thing, but earlier, in the 91 world.


Now that I've typed all that out, I'm going to go one step further. It should probably read 121=91 > 121=91=135 > 91 > 91 > 135 > 91

At 121 you pretty much know what you're going to get. At least at the large passenger operators. But there is entirely too much variety in 91 to lump it all together as unsafe. There are large Corporate operators. Multiple planes, dozen + pilots, FOQA, SMS, strict adherence to SOPs, full recurrent training every 6 months, and flying to big international airports. Then there are smaller corporate operators like mine. No FOQA going to small airports often, but a good focus on SMS and SOPs. There's 91k and there privately owned family accounts at the big management companies and accounts at small management companies. Some of those accounts may be on the 135 certificate at their management company and some are strictly 91. Then there are the big charter companies. Then there are completely self run one aircraft operations. 2 pilots with no oversight doing essentially whatever they want.

Obviously the pilots will have different amounts of oversight at all of these operators. Put the wrong pilots at the wrong operator and bad things will happen. This is true whether its 91, 121, or 135.
2 pilots doing essentially whatever they want is not necessarily a bad thing. The outcome is completely dependent upon the character of those 2 people.

Two well-trained, well-informed, dedicated, disciplined, service-oriented and honorable pilots will provide the best trip you've ever taken. Unlike most pilots, they will KNOW the regulations. Because they know those regs and personally possess the other qualities just listed, they will comport themselves with those regulations. But not because they are cowering alterboyscouts. They will act broadly and freely based on their deep understanding of the wide latitude those regs provide them as well as the hard limits those regulations impose upon them. They will understand the operation and functional principles of every piece of equipment installed in their plane and all the pieces of earth or orbit located equipment with which the airborne equipment interoperates. Depending on the need and efficiency, they will complete an overhead break or an ILS with equal competence and aplomb. They will serve their passengers by providing the safest, most efficient, and most delightful transport available.

Two good ol' boys keepin' thur jerbs by breaking laws, sucking up to, and drinkin' with the boss man? Yeah, that needs Parental oversight. Which is precisely why those types of asshats just simply can't stand the "nanny state" and who -if they vote- tend to vote for criminals who they reckon understand their MO and will let 'em keep crimin'!
 
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Ooof.
______________
I heard that story at some recurrent and my takeaway wasn't "don't take a CRJ to 410", but, "what could have been done better to enhance safety and success?

1. Better climb planning - requesting a slow climb to altitude and closely monitor engine performance. Thorough briefing of same including benchmarks for continue/abort decisions.

Yes. In fact, if memory serves, they actually ignored a limitation on climb rate above FL370.
 
Ooof.
______________
I heard that story at some recurrent and my takeaway wasn't "don't take a CRJ to 410", but, "what could have been done better to enhance safety and success?

1. Better climb planning - requesting a slow climb to altitude and closely monitor engine performance. Thorough briefing of same including benchmarks for continue/abort decisions.
2. Thorough briefing and practice of restart procedures.
3. Taking as little fuel as possible to maximize available power.

But then it seems like this wasn't a planned excursion to the limits, but a couple of kids given the keys to a jet.

Fix
Is the 410 SCL in the CRJ unrestricted, or weight dependent? That'd probably be good to know just as a first step.

Are there any climb restrictions?

Unless I'm test flying, I doubt I'm ever gonna rehearse checklists or flame-out memory items before any garden variety climb. Those should be down cold...ALWAYS.

The point here is, this was a couple of teenagers with daddy's new Corvette. I don't think anything about this event/incident/accident was planned whatsoever.

Still, this accident could not have happened in a more appropriate state, 'cept maybe Florida. Good thing aviation is Federally Regulated. Else, we all might end up 'tardin'. After all, culture is as culture does.
 
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Two things: Never knew that they were Hop A Jet, no matter how many times I heard that callsign. It just never sounded like that to my ears.

Really, the " Snickers" defense. To the Feds?
 
I don’t get what the big deal was about the 410 “club.”

The A320 was 390 max (yeah yeah 398). And the 737 is 410. I’ve done 410 several times, especially in the pandemic world of light loads in 2020.

It didn’t change anything one bit. Same pay, view of earth relatively similar from 410 vs 390, etc.

What’s the big deal? The guys pushed themselves into a coffin corner for some self-perceived club status.
 
Got the X above 490 to top some weather. Could give zero F’s though.

But I think that’s why having a varied background before going to the airlines is a good thing. Been there done that. Who cares. Do we get paid more? No. Ok then, let’s just fly the flight plan.


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I don’t get what the big deal was about the 410 “club.”

The A320 was 390 max (yeah yeah 398). And the 737 is 410. I’ve done 410 several times, especially in the pandemic world of light loads in 2020.

It didn’t change anything one bit. Same pay, view of earth relatively similar from 410 vs 390, etc.
What’s the big deal? The guys pushed themselves into a coffin corner for some self-perceived club status.
Better rides, topping wx and lower fuel burns We routinely did 450-470 in the Falcon. If there is a 410 club, I haven’t heard of it. We did it for the reasons I stated at the beginning of the post.
 
I don’t get what the big deal was about the 410 “club.”

The A320 was 390 max (yeah yeah 398). And the 737 is 410. I’ve done 410 several times, especially in the pandemic world of light loads in 2020.

It didn’t change anything one bit. Same pay, view of earth relatively similar from 410 vs 390, etc.

What’s the big deal? The guys pushed themselves into a coffin corner for some self-perceived club status.
Nothing. It's only cool when you're a teenager and just grabbed the keys to daddy's car. Even I, at my advanced temporal position, can understand how at that age, that would be kinda cool. Stupid as most teenager hijinks, but still cool.

If we trained pilots correctly and gave them more time to "play around" in airplanes during their training and experience gathering, we would not suffer such ignominious behavior once they hit the lines.
 
Better rides, topping wx and lower fuel burns We routinely did 450-470 in the Falcon. If there is a 410 club, I haven’t heard of it. We did it for the reasons I stated at the beginning of the post.

As I understand it, the 410 club thing was specifically at Pinnacle, and it was because 41,000 was the CRJ's service ceiling. Having such a club is incredibly juvenile in the first place, but you presumably wouldn't have a "410 club" for an aircraft that can reach 470. Maybe a "470 club" at most.
 
As I understand it, the 410 club thing was specifically at Pinnacle, and it was because 41,000 was the CRJ's service ceiling. Having such a club is incredibly juvenile in the first place, but you presumably wouldn't have a "410 club" for an aircraft that can reach 470. Maybe a "470 club" at most.

The Falcon 900 and Citation X both had service ceilings of 510. There were a few at XOJET that bragged about being up there in the X. I had zero desire to do it. I don’t understand the appeal.


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I find it weird that folks get excited about above 410. It's pretty normal on this side of the industry other than the 600 series Challengers. It typically live between 410 and 450 for any flight over an hour and typically from sea level to 450 within 25 minutes.
 
Ooof.
______________
I heard that story at some recurrent and my takeaway wasn't "don't take a CRJ to 410", but, "what could have been done better to enhance safety and success?

1. Better climb planning - requesting a slow climb to altitude and closely monitor engine performance. Thorough briefing of same including benchmarks for continue/abort decisions.
2. Thorough briefing and practice of restart procedures.
3. Taking as little fuel as possible to maximize available power.

But then it seems like this wasn't a planned excursion to the limits, but a couple of kids given the keys to a jet.

Fix
Also referring to the performance charts to see if you even have the ability to do so safely under current conditions ( atmospheric, A/C weight, etc ).

Like you said.. they acted like a couple of kids that had been thrown the keys to the airplane, unfortunately.
 
The Falcon 900 and Citation X both had service ceilings of 510. There were a few at XOJET that bragged about being up there in the X. I had zero desire to do it. I don’t understand the appeal.


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I find it weird that folks get excited about above 410. It's pretty normal on this side of the industry other than the 600 series Challengers. It typically live between 410 and 450 for any flight over an hour and typically from sea level to 450 within 25 minutes.
The Lear 45/75 service ceiling is also 510. Flights of any length we would be at FL400-FL430. FL450 (and rarely FL470) for weather/fuel concerns.

I was an SIC when we got our first 40's & 45's. On a long range trip coming back from the west coast with the chief pilot, we requested block altitudes, left the thrust levers pushed up, and let it climb at constant airspeed (M0.75 maybe?). We were within a few hundred feet of FL500 when we got a descent from ATC. No, we weren't tempted to zoom that few hundred feet... can't say we liked being all the way up there honestly. Never went above FL470 after that, and only went there when weight/conditions made it easy. No test pilot stuff, thank you.
 
Did 430+ several times coming home from Afghanistan, just to the east of Iran, couldn't laterally avoid the big spring/summer boomers off their back range because Karachi center was too inept (and I couldn't go into Iran either)......so we just told them we were climbing. Combat loaded aircraft/heavy/draggy, minimum afterburner the whole time, hanging on the blades at maybe 220 KIAS at those altitudes. Uncomfortable for sure. No need to duplicate the experience in my adult life. I agree, some of these kids just don't know what they don't know, and think anything about a jet is exciting and possible. Lots of stuff that is very much not possible in transport category aircraft, nor should it ever be tried. It's not really a "jet", it is a bus with turbofans. Super not cool. Reminds me of a wise old instructor when I was in T-45's. On the topic of being really fast in the overhead/break, his comment was "you will never look cool in an orange and white plane, not worth trying". I think this even more true in an airliner. You aren't going to be cool ever. Just boring. And you are probably fat and look like a middle aged man too.
 
I don't understand the argument. Of course 121 is safer than 91/135. Are there outliers in there, yes. But as a general rule, 121 will be the safest.

That said, it isn't the pilots. It's the operating environment. And I don't mean the airports or the varied flying. It is less oversight, less structure, etc that allows for the bad apples to be, bad apples. The 121 environment simply doesn't allow it. Pinnacle was a great example. Two pilots who were safe in the structured 121 environment right up until that structure went away. An empty plane allowed for some bad behavior and we all know the result. Those 2 likely would have done the same thing, but earlier, in the 91 world.


Now that I've typed all that out, I'm going to go one step further. It should probably read 121=91 > 121=91=135 > 91 > 91 > 135 > 91

At 121 you pretty much know what you're going to get. At least at the large passenger operators. But there is entirely too much variety in 91 to lump it all together as unsafe. There are large Corporate operators. Multiple planes, dozen + pilots, FOQA, SMS, strict adherence to SOPs, full recurrent training every 6 months, and flying to big international airports. Then there are smaller corporate operators like mine. No FOQA going to small airports often, but a good focus on SMS and SOPs. There's 91k and there privately owned family accounts at the big management companies and accounts at small management companies. Some of those accounts may be on the 135 certificate at their management company and some are strictly 91. Then there are the big charter companies. Then there are completely self run one aircraft operations. 2 pilots with no oversight doing essentially whatever they want.

Obviously the pilots will have different amounts of oversight at all of these operators. Put the wrong pilots at the wrong operator and bad things will happen. This is true whether its 91, 121, or 135.
What about pt 125? I’ve a suspicion I might be about to do a bunch of learning.
 
The Lear 45/75 service ceiling is also 510. Flights of any length we would be at FL400-FL430. FL450 (and rarely FL470) for weather/fuel concerns.

I was an SIC when we got our first 40's & 45's. On a long range trip coming back from the west coast with the chief pilot, we requested block altitudes, left the thrust levers pushed up, and let it climb at constant airspeed (M0.75 maybe?). We were within a few hundred feet of FL500 when we got a descent from ATC. No, we weren't tempted to zoom that few hundred feet... can't say we liked being all the way up there honestly. Never went above FL470 after that, and only went there when weight/conditions made it easy. No test pilot stuff, thank you.
A member here once took me and some associates way up into the flight levels in a Lear 45 to confirm some weirdness that absolutely couldn’t be replicated on the ground regardless of any of the manufacturer’s engineers mathematics.
This operation normally cruised at 49K feet between SoCal and South America. My memory is foggy but I think the fan RPM on one engine was bumping into the yellow when they were operating at that altitude. We replicated it and came back , sent the data to Honeywell and they said it was fine and there was no problem. I’m not sure if that info gave the crew the warm fuzzies, it was not long until they got a Challenger 300.
 
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