Oh Alaska/Boeing

Apophis said:
Boeing doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Sorry.

This is far beyond “it happens at other manufacturers” territory. There is a systemic rot at Boeing that they seem wholly incapable of stopping.

They’re reaping the rewards of literal decades of incompetence. There was a period of time when Boeing diverted 92% of its cash flow to stock buy-backs. Perhaps they wouldn’t have fallen so far behind Airbus if they focused more on engineering and manufacturing and less on boosting their share price.

You aren’t arguing in good faith comparing Boeing’s plight to other manufacturers. The same top-down systemic rot just doesn’t exist on this level at Embraer or Airbus, etc.
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I agree with that. There needs to be a change at the very, very top. But I also think it’s fair to say that literally every Boeing divert is being reported in the news.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Kink shaming is my kink
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It’s irrelevant about the single AOA correlation. After Lion Air, the safety alert to MAX operators told the world what MCAS was, and how to deactivate it.


I’ve only seen two speeds of the stab trim wheel spinning. Regular (flaps up) and quicker (flaps 1 or greater). Seeing MCAS activate the stab trim wheel in the sim, it was blazing fast. It was obvious that this was not regular or quicker movement one should be accustomed to in the 737.


Bottom line is, the 737 is a AP off, AT off plane when SHTF. It’s a good plane but it requires actual flying skill. The A320 family is far more designed for the low timer and the button pushing crowd. And even that has consequences (eg, Air Asia).

Boeing should have recognized who they were selling to. Airbus already knew.
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The single AOA isn't irrelevant when the MCAS fires because of incorrect AOA readings on BOTH accidents.

Sure, kick stuff off and hand fly, I fully agree. That being said, people don't fly like we do in other countries. I have flown with two newish FOs at AS who were both 737 and 787 CAs and Check Airmen at Air India. Do I need to tell you how their flying skills are? I bet you can take a guess...

It is 2024, you shouldn't have to kick the automation off because it is trying to kill you. When automation trips a crew up, it is because it typically is doing something they asked to do, and they didn't realize it, or it has entered a mode reversion they didn't notice. Having a brand new airplane pitch down with such force that if you don't fix it in 10 seconds you die, is 100000% unacceptable.

I don't care what the flying skills are of foreign pilots as much as I care about the systems installed in these brand-new airplanes rolling off the assembly line, being reliable, and do what they are designed to do safely.

I really don't like the narrative that the salty silver foxes at AS push on how the 737 is just a giant 172, and to just yank and bank it. It is a commercial airliner operating in the safest infrastructure of travel on the planet. It isn't just a 172, it is an old design airliner with modern system changes and to rely on pilots to fix a manufacturer's shortcomings is laughable. This is basically defending Boeing in the criminal behavior they have absolutely been guilty of.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Nah. Sensationalist journalism. Have you noticed that *literally* any divert involving a Boeing is making front page news?

I’d like to know what exactly those failed audit portions were for. Those 33 could be serious issues or extremely minor in the process.


All I know is the media is hounding on anything Boeing, for views and ratings.
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Dude do you really need more evidence of Boeing screwing the pooch? You have written off major accidents, smoking guns, suicides, NTSB and FAA investigations. What more do you need to hold them accountable?
 
Inverted said:
The single AOA isn't irrelevant when the MCAS fires because of incorrect AOA readings on BOTH accidents.

Sure, kick stuff off and hand fly, I fully agree. That being said, people don't fly like we do in other countries. I have flown with two newish FOs at AS who were both 737 and 787 CAs and Check Airmen at Air India. Do I need to tell you how their flying skills are? I bet you can take a guess...

It is 2024, you shouldn't have to kick the automation off because it is trying to kill you. When automation trips a crew up, it is because it typically is doing something they asked to do, and they didn't realize it, or it has entered a mode reversion they didn't notice. Having a brand new airplane pitch down with such force that if you don't fix it in 10 seconds you die, is 100000% unacceptable.

I don't care what the flying skills are of foreign pilots as much as I care about the systems installed in these brand-new airplanes rolling off the assembly line, being reliable, and do what they are designed to do safely.

I really don't like the narrative that the salty silver foxes at AS push on how the 737 is just a giant 172, and to just yank and bank it. It is a commercial airliner operating in the safest infrastructure of travel on the planet. It isn't just a 172, it is an old design airliner with modern system changes and to rely on pilots to fix a manufacturer's shortcomings is laughable. This is basically defending Boeing in the criminal behavior they have absolutely been guilty of.
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I largely agree with you except two things.

No one told me to yank and bank it :)

And I don’t think the threshold for criminal negligence is met. Just IMO.
 
Inverted said:
It isn't just a 172, it is an old design airliner with modern system changes and to rely on pilots to fix a manufacturer's shortcomings is laughable. This is basically defending Boeing in the criminal behavior they have absolutely been guilty of.
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I think both ideas can apply. Boeing is indeed screwed up pretty deeply. Once is a fluke, twice a coincidence, and three or more now a trend. And Boeing is well past that trend issue to where they are completely messed up and need some serious unscrewing. There is no defense of Boeing in this.

That said, on the flip side of the coin, crews that are flying airliners and aren’t competent to hand fly and be ready for whatever curveball the plane might throw at them (aside from something such as complete structural failure, or anything resulting in a completely unflyable aircraft), is 100% unacceptable as well
 
MikeD said:
That said, on the flip side of the coin, pilots need to know how to, and be ready for, unscrewing anything the airplane might do to try and kill them.
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I agree 100%. But where do we draw the line of pilots fixing the one-in-a-million anomaly of an automated system malfunctioning and trying to kill them, and Boeing developing and implementing an inferior design system with a single point of failure if the customer orders it that way, and relying on assumed pilot skills to fix it?
 
Inverted said:
I agree 100%. But where do we draw the line of pilots fixing the one-in-a-million anomaly of an automated system malfunctioning and trying to kill them, and Boeing developing and implementing an inferior design system with a single point of failure if the customer orders it that way, and relying on assumed pilot skills to fix it?
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And that is a fair point too. While pilots should be able to compensate for aircraft anomalies, that doesn’t mean they should have to be having to be thrown into the pit of having to solve avoidable problems such as Boeings constant quality control issues.
 
BTW, hand flying skills are going away. We as an industry need to be prepared for that. For the first time in my career, I am flying with FOs who have never flown an airplane for fun. They have never flown to get a 500 dollar hamburger, never flown to a fly-in, never flown to a cool airport, never sought out flying fun and interesting airplanes, never flown a seaplane, or tailwheel, biplane, vintage airplane, a cool kit build etc.

These new professional track pilots took their first flight in a professional curriculum, and have only known the mindset of a professional, career track pilot. The industry has not focused on hand flying and the airlines aren't getting former military and highly experienced pilots like days of old. Lots of new airline pilots, in fact most of them, are absolutely fantastic pilots, but how many times have they really had to take control of a situation?

If the narrative becomes "airplanes are unreliable, so pilots need to fix design shortcomings" then we are in serious, serious trouble.
 
Inverted said:
BTW, hand flying skills are going away. We as an industry need to be prepared for that. For the first time in my career, I am flying with FOs who have never flown an airplane for fun. They have never flown to get a 500 dollar hamburger, never flown to a fly-in, never flown to a cool airport, never sought out flying fun and interesting airplanes, never flown a seaplane, or tailwheel, biplane, vintage airplane, a cool kit build etc.

These new professional track pilots took their first flight in a professional curriculum, and have only known the mindset of a professional, career track pilot. The industry has not focused on hand flying and the airlines aren't getting former military and highly experienced pilots like days of old. Lots of new airline pilots, in fact most of them, are absolutely fantastic pilots, but how many times have they really had to take control of a situation?

If the narrative becomes "airplanes are unreliable, so pilots need to fix design shortcomings" then we are in serious, serious trouble.
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I've never done that either. I couldn't afford it. Flying is expensive and even more expensive these days. Now I may have taken students to Stephensville for Hard 8 on a cross that's was a lesson. Outside of sitting in the back of discovery flights for my kid and cross-country flying on the University flight team...there wasn't any "fun" flights. I had to enjoy those lessons, flying boxes, or flying these clients. That's about as fun as it's going to get.
 
KLB said:
I've never done that either. I couldn't afford it. Flying is expensive and even more expensive these days. Now I may have taken students to Stephensville for Hard 8 on a cross that's was a lesson. Outside of sitting in the back of discovery flights for my kid and cross-country flying on the University flight team...there wasn't any "fun" flights. I had to enjoy those lessons, flying boxes, or flying these clients. That's about as fun as it's going to get.
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You are a different generation though. You and I, and thousands like us, went and flew banner tow, glider tow, traffic watch, single pilot freight, part 135 jets and turbine twins to build time because the competitive thresholds were so high. Now, an R-ATP goes from a bit of instructing to Skywest, to Delta.
 
Inverted said:
You are a different generation though. You and I, and thousands like us, went and flew banner tow, glider tow, traffic watch, single pilot freight, part 135 jets and turbine twins to build time because the competitive thresholds were so high. Now, an R-ATP goes from a bit of instructing to Skywest, to Delta.
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I agree. There is a company dowm here in South Florida that hired and typed a Challenger 300 FO at 500hrs.
 
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