NWA Ground Crews Walk Off The Job at MSP
- Thread starter Malko
- Start date
tonyw
Well-Known Member
You know what's funny? Treating your employees well is correlated with positive stock returns. Want proof? Southwest is well known for treating their employees well and gee, guess what they've had for about 20 years in a row. Profits.
So, if management is supposed to be managing the company to benefit stockholders, well, gee, guess what treating employees well helps them do?
tonyw
Well-Known Member
If you're booking an important business trip with no room for delays in it, perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before you start labelling people uneducated and stupid.
Anyone who does that and then pitches a hissy fit when he's delayed needs to learn business 101. Smart businessmen plan properly and figure there are 101 things that can delay their flight so they work some time in.
After travelling for business for about 15 years to the far corners of the earth, I'm amazed that anyone who does so with any frequency would pitch a hissy fit about a delay!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
So here's how it works:
-Company pisses off workers
-Workers decide to piss off the customers
-This pisses off the company
-This would, in most circles, be called payback for pissing off the employee's.
-Managment fires these employee's
-Managment then looses their jobs because they have nobody to load the bags
-Company dissolves
How do you fix the problem? Don't piss off the employee's. If you cut their pay/work rules/benefits enough they'll just pull the trigger on the whole place.
-Company pisses off workers
-Workers decide to piss off the customers
-This pisses off the company
-This would, in most circles, be called payback for pissing off the employee's.
-Managment fires these employee's
-Managment then looses their jobs because they have nobody to load the bags
-Company dissolves
How do you fix the problem? Don't piss off the employee's. If you cut their pay/work rules/benefits enough they'll just pull the trigger on the whole place.
Tony, you bring up another good point. The employees who have taken it upon themselves to disrupt operations and cost the company, the shareholders, and the passengers money are responding to perceived slights by management. Maybe even real slights by management.
That doesn't mean that it's OK to respond in kind. Why let the other party to a disagreement set the rules? By that logic, anyone that you think is going to harm you, you can harm first.
Most people on this board are on the side of the employees, largely because they *are* employees. Yet I hope folks will look at things in the big picture: 20 minutes to one group of people may be everything to another. And what about the shareholders? I don't know but suppose there were 50 employees that decided to ot work for 20 minutes...so 1000 minutes of lost labor. That labor was still paid-these employees have stolen that time from their company. It doesn't really matter what they think that is owed to them because they have the option to sue, to strike (under certain conditions), to threaten to strike (as Doug aptly ponted out), or to quit.
It sucks to feel powerless, and that's apparently how these people feel. However they still have the above options, not the least of which is to find a job where they feel appreciated, and paid what they think they're worth. The ground truth is that they may not be worth what they think they are worth. None of us are-we're only worth what people are willing to pay us.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Well, that's the logic that got us stuck in Iraq. If it's good enough for the President, why not for rampers?
I'm just kidding.
Seriously, though, I just think there has to be a long term approach to labor management issues from both sides. You get someone in management who says, I have to treat these people well so they work hard and are happy. Then they'll take care of our customers and those people will come back.
It's the difference between walking into Wal-Mart or walking into Nordstrom. Management at Nordstrom realizes that making sure their employees are taken care of means they take care of their customers. That means those customers come back and spend more money.
If I were running a small business and my employees staged a sitdown for 20 minutes I'd be pissed as hell. I'd be pissed at my employees for not feeling like they could come to me to tell me what was going on.
But I'd be more pissed at myself for not seeing what was going on and taking steps to address the problem.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
You. Just. Don't. Get. It.
Tim
New Member
In one of you earlier post you were saying that the jobs were unskilled and could be easily replaced. As I argued with you that there is more skill than you could ever possibly know unless you have done the job. It takes a unique type person to being willing to work in the rain, snow, sleet, hail, heat, wind and cold. The postal delivery guy/girl cant even come close to.
I sat behind a desk for 9 months and realized I hated it. I liked being at the airport smelling money burning (jet exhaust) and being in the mix. I am an operations type guy. It took my sitting behind that desk to appreciate being a ramper but also that I missed that stuff.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I was citing my earlier comments, before our exchange. Given what you've told me, though, I can understand why ground workers may be more scarce than I originally thought. I appreciate your insight on the matter.
Like I said earlier, this should hopefully lead to higher salaries and better working conditions. Unfortunately, the only solution for people wanting to better the wages and conditions in their job is to quit. If enough people do so, and there's no one to replace them, things would have to improve. It just sucks for people like regional FOs who can quit, but be replaced immediately by someone willing to work for even less (or even pay for the job).
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Ya know, I can't add anything to this that Tim, my fellow ramp rat, hasn't already brought up. I worked with multiple people with college degrees, some with masters degrees. To automatically assume that they are uneducated based on their job is not only naive, it's degrading and stupid.
If this had been a 20 minute WX delay like lightning in the area after the plane landed, the end result of passengers not getting their bags would have been the same. But, since it was someone trying to make a point, people get all pissed off b/c they couldn't get their bags. Why? Is everyone in THAT much of a hurry to get to grandma's house for turkey? Any business meeting you attend will accept "Sorry, my flight was delayed" as an excuse, especially if ALL the flights were delayed.
If this had been a 20 minute WX delay like lightning in the area after the plane landed, the end result of passengers not getting their bags would have been the same. But, since it was someone trying to make a point, people get all pissed off b/c they couldn't get their bags. Why? Is everyone in THAT much of a hurry to get to grandma's house for turkey? Any business meeting you attend will accept "Sorry, my flight was delayed" as an excuse, especially if ALL the flights were delayed.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I would have never called these folks stupid - nowhere did I say this. Generally, manual laborers tend to be less educated than their white collar counterparts - it's a matter of fact They're not uneducated, just less educated - which gives them fewer opportunities to earn high end salaries. As such, they should expect to be the first to have their wages lowered during a company's economic troubles. It's completely unfair, as these are hard working folks, but that's just how the system works.
Tim
New Member
Steve you are right if it had been a wx delay no one would have said a word and the media would never have thought of printing it
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I'm not some pissy business traveler that gets angry due to weather delays and such. I completely understand that my flight can be delayed, and no, a 20-minute delay isn't going to me kill me. Hell, I'm one of the folks who had to cancel an entire trip last February due to U.S. Air's baggage problems - leading to a missed family vacation. I was angry, but I was sympathetic to the employees of U.S. Air who were doing the best job they could with the situation given them.
This isn't about pissy travelers, this is about folks walking off their job temporarily because they weren't happy with it. I'm from the south, where we don't rely on unions to whine and complain on our behalf. If things are that bad, you quit. If they're not that bad, you suck it up and go to work. Simple as that. I'm not sure where this third option of throwing a fit and making other hardworking folks suffer for it came about, but I disagree with it.
This isn't about pissy travelers, this is about folks walking off their job temporarily because they weren't happy with it. I'm from the south, where we don't rely on unions to whine and complain on our behalf. If things are that bad, you quit. If they're not that bad, you suck it up and go to work. Simple as that. I'm not sure where this third option of throwing a fit and making other hardworking folks suffer for it came about, but I disagree with it.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
What you call "throwing a fit" I call bringing exposure to a problem. It worked. BTW, did anyone else notice that NWA tossed out the labor contracts, yet the bankruptcy court today said they are allowed to keep in all the executive contracts? Real nice.
And I don't see what being from the South has to do with it. I'm from Memphis, TN, and I don't feel the same way. I feel that someone that does a good job and works hard should be rewarded, not treated like scum and just "suck it up and go to work."
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Vote with your feet, that's all I'm saying. I think storming off the job for 20-minutes is juvenile. If the conditions are that bad, tell them to go &%$! themselves and walk. I just feel that somone who works hard and does a good job shouldn't work in an environment where they're treated like scum - unless they have absolutely no reasonable opportunity to pursue something better. Why be the company's bitch while they "negotiate". If they open up one day and no one shows up for work, then you'll have your justice. The scores of FOs leaving the regionals seem to have it right.
It must be more of a Texas thing, as we have next to no unions there.
I understand the point that everyone is trying to make, but the job of the airlines is to maximize profits period. In a free market system any company that operates in a way that does not mazimize profits will not last. I am not qualified to give an economics lesson, but I think many would benefit from reading up a little bit. Lets say "Quickandfast Airlines" pays their loyal ramp workers that get the weight and balance right every single time $20 an hour. They are faced with with option of hiring some maybe not so great employees for 10 an hour that get the weight and balance 99.9% of the time. This saves them 5 million a year in labor costs, but they have one plane that runs off the end of the runway. This one accident costs say 4 million in lost revenue because of a tarnished image, lawsuits, damage etc. The decision would still be to hire the 10 an hour employees with the accident. If that one accident was estimated to be over that 5 million number then they would hire the $20 an hour.
There is a reason that lawsuits often settle for extremely high amounts. Our law system is based on precedent and the courts are trying to help the general welfare of the public. Without these huge settlements it would be profit maximizing to have these types of mistakes.
Supply and demand determines what these workers get paid. If there is someone willing to do the job of these workers for less and meets the requirements then the wage will be lowered.
Maybe someone can explain this to me: These major airlines that aren't doing so well serve a ton of routes. Some of these routes are profitable some are not. Some of these newer budget airlines only operate the profitable routes and therefore have way better margins. Why don't the majors just cut the unprofitable routes? The only business plan that seems be working so far is running only profitable routes and buying those fuel futures at the right time.
Man, I did not explain this correctly at all. In fact now that I read back, it barely makes sense. Oh well I am not gonna erase it after 20 min of hard work. I hope some of you can read between the lines and get what I am trying to say.
-Jason
There is a reason that lawsuits often settle for extremely high amounts. Our law system is based on precedent and the courts are trying to help the general welfare of the public. Without these huge settlements it would be profit maximizing to have these types of mistakes.
Supply and demand determines what these workers get paid. If there is someone willing to do the job of these workers for less and meets the requirements then the wage will be lowered.
Maybe someone can explain this to me: These major airlines that aren't doing so well serve a ton of routes. Some of these routes are profitable some are not. Some of these newer budget airlines only operate the profitable routes and therefore have way better margins. Why don't the majors just cut the unprofitable routes? The only business plan that seems be working so far is running only profitable routes and buying those fuel futures at the right time.
Man, I did not explain this correctly at all. In fact now that I read back, it barely makes sense. Oh well I am not gonna erase it after 20 min of hard work. I hope some of you can read between the lines and get what I am trying to say.
-Jason
Oh yeah heres something else to ponder. When will pilots be paid more? When either the demand increases or the supply shrinks. Too many kids just like me that dream of being paid for 3-d freedom. The insurance companies come up with these mins after crunching numbers figuring chance of a payout based on pilot experience. Why do you think an actuary professional makes 60k a year right out of school.
I read jetcareers all of the time because I want to become a professional pilot and the information is beneficial. Maybe Doug and the others JCers are hurting their salaries by helping more future pilots enter the hiring pool. Just another way to look at it.
-Jason
btw thanks doug and everyone for providing such a valuable resource. I have learned a ton reading your posts.
I read jetcareers all of the time because I want to become a professional pilot and the information is beneficial. Maybe Doug and the others JCers are hurting their salaries by helping more future pilots enter the hiring pool. Just another way to look at it.
-Jason
btw thanks doug and everyone for providing such a valuable resource. I have learned a ton reading your posts.
