NWA Ground Crews Walk Off The Job at MSP

[Murdoughnut]

I'm so sorry I didn't realize my livelihood is more important than your lesuire trip. Worried about getting someplace? just drive.

As a business traveler, my livelihood is affected by them doing their job. It's not my fault they chose a career that anyone with two working legs and the ability to lift 50lbs can do. Sorry folks, it's supply and demand. Worried about not being paid enough? Go to college.

 

[pilot602]

As a business traveler, my livelihood is affected by them doing their job. It's not my fault they chose a career that anyone with two working legs and the ability to lift 50lbs can do. Sorry folks, it's supply and demand. Worried about not being paid enough? Go to college.

If it's that important: DRIVE. No one is forcing you to fly.

And, if your livelihood depends on air travel you should be accustomed to planing for unexpected delays (wx, mx, etc., etc., etc.).

 

[Murdoughnut]

If it's that important: DRIVE. No one is forcing you to fly.

And, if your livelihood depends on air travel you should be accustomed to planing for unexpected delays (wx, mx, etc., etc., etc.).

I would gladly choose to drive if the union would give me at least 24-hours notice that they're going to strike. I am accustomed to delays outside the airline's control - weather, mechanical issues, etc. These don't bother me as I know the airline is doing their best to get me where I paid them to take me. But when people insist on throwing a fit because they don't get paid like college professors to lift bags, and I'm delayed because of it, like most Americans, it pisses me off.

 

[Tim]

Perfect time of year. Good job!

Might have been a 20 minute delay for Molly McButter in 27C with a discount ticket and her life partner's flying for free because she bought groceries on her credit card all year, but the ground pounders have been dealing with crap for tremendously longer.

AMEN Bro Taylor!!!!!!!!!

 

[derg]

As a business traveler, my livelihood is affected by them doing their job. It's not my fault they chose a career that anyone with two working legs and the ability to lift 50lbs can do. Sorry folks, it's supply and demand. Worried about not being paid enough? Go to college.

Here's the difference.

If you were delayed, you also chose to book a reservation on an airline which is having labor problems. Remember, there are always buses, trains, ferries, other airlines, automobiles or (eek!) hitchhiking!

And there are a LOT of "ground pounders" with a college education. Some have more than you and I.

 

[Tim]

As a business traveler, my livelihood is affected by them doing their job. It's not my fault they chose a career that anyone with two working legs and the ability to lift 50lbs can do. Sorry folks, it's supply and demand. Worried about not being paid enough? Go to college.

Well if not the rampers fault that you chose a career that causes you to travel. Same thing. You need them to be there for you airplane to go on time and they need you to buy a ticket. As far as the quote about college. There are many rampers I know that have college degrees but made choices just like you do everyday.

 

[derg]

I just take it personal when people presume that ground ops people are uneducated.

You can do all the precise flight planning you want, but if the fueler misfuels you, your flight plans not going to matter.

You can do all the "to the datum +/- 1" load planning, but if the ground pounders misload you, you're going to have a hell of a surprise when you rotate and the plane doesn't climb.

As the pay goes down and the professionals seek other employment, the general public is going to unfortunately learn the hard way how important every piece of the airline puzzle is, from the dispatchers all the way "down" to the guy loading your bags.

Hopefully, I won't be the one flying.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Here's the difference.

If you were delayed, you also chose to book a reservation on an airline which is having labor problems. Remember, there are always buses, trains, ferries, other airlines, automobiles or (eek!) hitchhiking!

And there are a LOT of "ground pounders" with a college education. Some have more than you and I.

So are you suggesting no one should book on an airline with labor problems? Better hope that doesn't happen in bulk, or you sir could be out of a job.

I have respect for what these men and women do, but it's just like the auto industry - they have a low skill job that just about anyone can do, yet they insist on resisting the pay shift that just about every sector is experiencing. In the end, they'll probably lose their jobs and pensions - but they'll still have an active union card.

 

[Tim]

I just take it personal when people presume that ground ops people are uneducated.

You can do all the precise flight planning you want, but if the fueler misfuels you, your flight plans not going to matter.

You can do all the "to the datum +/- 1" load planning, but if the ground pounders misload you, you're going to have a hell of a surprise when you rotate and the plane doesn't climb.

As the pay goes down and the professionals seek other employment, the general public is going to unfortunately learn the hard way how important every piece of the airline puzzle is, from the dispatchers all the way "down" to the guy loading your bags.

Hopefully, I won't be the one flying.

Thanks Doug for the props. So many of the uneducated public have no idea what its like to balance an aircraft. -88's are the worse. This time of the year with all the bags and full aircraft keeping the aft index in check can be very tricky. They think its easy riding around around on a tug. Unless they have worked in the cold, wet, and nasty weather like rampers do everyday then dont say a word about working conditions. Until they have done it they can never ever compare. But they never complain or compliment when their bags arrive on time. Kell can vouch for those conditions

 

[Tim]

So are you suggesting no one should book on an airline with labor problems? Better hope that doesn't happen in bulk, or you sir could be out of a job.

I have respect for what these men and women do, but it's just like the auto industry - they have a low skill job that just about anyone can do, yet they insist on resisting the pay shift that just about every sector is experiencing. In the end, they'll probably lose their jobs and pensions - but they'll still have an active union card.

I tell you what the next time in your area that is cold raining and down right miserable get on your lawn tractor (unless you are too good to do that) and ride around for eight hours climbing on and off then flat out shut because dont any idea what you are talking about......the flight crews dont balance the bags and cargo rampers do. So next time you are watching them load your plane remember that if they make a mistake then your a$$ may never make it off the ground because you will go sliding on the end of the runway. Again until you have balanced a fully loaded aircraft you can never ever make an accurate judgement of they intelligence


And yes you have struck a nerve with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Murdoughnut]

I just take it personal when people presume that ground ops people are uneducated.

You can do all the precise flight planning you want, but if the fueler misfuels you, your flight plans not going to matter.

You can do all the "to the datum +/- 1" load planning, but if the ground pounders misload you, you're going to have a hell of a surprise when you rotate and the plane doesn't climb.

As the pay goes down and the professionals seek other employment, the general public is going to unfortunately learn the hard way how important every piece of the airline puzzle is, from the dispatchers all the way "down" to the guy loading your bags.

Hopefully, I won't be the one flying.

Don't get me wrong, I have respect for these folks - I respect anyone that actually works for a living, but it's simple economics. There isn't much in the way of scarcity when it comes to hiring ground crew. When the airlines were well in the black, they had no problem paying high wages for jobs such as this. Due to the downturn (not just for the airlines, but in the entire blue-collar sector) airlines can't afford to pay people more than they're worth anymore. Like I said, see the auto industry as an example.

 

[Tim]

Don't get me wrong, I have respect for these folks - I respect anyone that actually works for a living, but it's simple economics. There isn't much in the way of scarcity when it comes to hiring ground crew. When the airlines were well in the black, they had no problem paying high wages for jobs such as this. Due to the downturn (not just for the airlines, but in the entire blue-collar sector) airlines can't afford to pay people more than they're worth anymore. Like I said, see the auto industry as an example.

You wouldnt believe how hard it is get hire ramp crews now. Besides hoping the pass the background, drug test, and FAA fingerprints many of todays kids have work ethics that they think they should be pay $50,000 a yr to start out. If you hired 50 tomorrow and they all passed the above checks with in 18 months you might have 15 that are still there. Thats what society is teaching them. Its not you work hard and earn your money.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I tell you what the next time in your area that is cold raining and down right miserable get on your lawn tractor (unless you are too good to do that) and ride around for eight hours climbing on and off then flat out shut because dont any idea what you are talking about......the flight crews dont balance the bags and cargo rampers do. So next time you are watching them load your plane remember that if they make a mistake then your a$$ may never make it off the ground because you will go sliding on the end of the runway. Again until you have balanced a fully loaded aircraft you can never ever make an accurate judgement of they intelligence


And yes you have struck a nerve with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have it completely wrong man. I'm sure these folks bust their asses. Each time I fly out of CMH and see those guys and girls fighting off the freezing rain to load my bags, I take a moment to admire their work ethic.

My point is simply one of economics. If NWA fired the full lot of ground crew tomorrow morning, they'd have thousands of potential applicants willing to work for less knocking on their door by that afternoon. As memory serves me, they had no problem finding replacement MX workers when they went on strike awhile back.

You can chill out man - I'm not insulting those who work for a living. I'm simply saying, this is a capitalist economy, and the laws of capitalism prevail.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

What if the guys at the power company decided that they were uderpaid and decided to turn the electricity off for half an hour? "People are just watching American Idol, anyway!" they might say. But it's just not their call to do it, just like it's not the call of employees-especially employees of companies that have received government monies to keep them solvent- to decide that it's time to stick it to the man. There's a mechanism for a strike, these folks should either use it, or not. In the meantime, hardworking as these people are, they really ought to be punished, if not fired.

-LC

Your analogy is exaggerated. It would be more analogous to saying the ground crew workers parked their tugs behind the planes and refused to move. They did'nt "turn the electric off", they simply stopped providing their service, human work, for 20 minutes. That is their god given right.
Should there be armed guards standing in watchtowers, people with whips, forcing them to work?

I gotta agree with everything Kellwolf said. It was 20 minutes. I mean really....big deal. Who hasn't been delayed 20 minutes? The reward was that the ground crews showed management they were capable of uniting and making a mass decision. Like you said, it is not a HIGHLY skilled job. One can be replaced with another that will work for that crappy wage for a given period. However, when the whole group needs to be replaced at once ---Big Trouble.

The ground workers were obviously concerned about the airline and passengers because they only did it for just the right amount of time to send a message, and cause only a small impact to the company and passengers. Now they have risked what every corporate management department does next---Go on a secret witchhunt to find the chief players.

If I was a passenger, I would not be mad at the ground crews...I would be mad at the airline for hosing the ground crews so much. I certainly would never try to say that my livelihood is connected to a 20 minute delay.

As a business traveler, my livelihood is affected by them doing their job. It's not my fault they chose a career that anyone with two working legs and the ability to lift 50lbs can do. Sorry folks, it's supply and demand. Worried about not being paid enough? Go to college.

Dang man....Thats' just cold hearted. I too am a businessman that travels very often. I am all too accustomed to delays. It is just part of flying. However, I don't look down from my well paying job, with my Ivy league degree, and snub my nose at people in jobs such as this, showing only a care for the self and not the whole.

Maybe they could not go to college. Maybe they were born into a very poor family and mom and daddy could not pay for it. Maybe they were'nt born with serious brainpower you must have. Maybe they ARE going to college and paying for it by doing ramp work. Indeed, that type of job is often a stepping stone to something else.

Personally, I have great respect for people in jobs such as ground crews. It is physically demanding, working rain, sleet or snow. Obviously from your comments, it is quite thankless. BUT!!! it is an absolute neccesity.

These people are not trying to rise above their job levels in terms of salary or work conditions, they are simply trying not to have their current level reduced EVEN more.

 

[Tim]

You have it completely wrong man. I'm sure these folks bust their asses. Each time I fly out of CMH and see those guys and girls fighting off the freezing rain to load my bags, I take a moment to admire their work ethic.

My point is simply one of economics. If NWA fired the full lot of ground crew tomorrow morning, they'd have thousands of potential applicants willing to work for less knocking on their door by that afternoon. As memory serves me, they had no problem finding replacement MX workers when they went on strike awhile back.

You can chill out man - I'm not insulting those who work for a living. I'm simply saying, this is a capitalist economy, and the laws of capitalism prevail.

You come across in your previous post as saying that anyone can do that job and its a cake walk and that those folks are uneducated. That is what I am defending. I spent over 15 yrs doing that job. I have the aches and pains and surgeries from it but I wouldnt trade the knowledge I gain about balancing passenger aircraft for anything in the world. Yes in a grand stream of things its like balancing a 172 because you cant be overweight and the CG has to be correct but there is tons more to it.

 

[Murdoughnut]

You wouldnt believe how hard it is get hire ramp crews now. Besides hoping the pass the background, drug test, and FAA fingerprints many of todays kids have work ethics that they think they should be pay $50,000 a yr to start out. If you hired 50 tomorrow and they all passed the above checks with in 18 months you might have 15 that are still there. Thats what society is teaching them. Its not you work hard and earn your money.

I agree with you completely - I see it in the applicants my company gets too. The problem with my company is that when we find someone who qualifies to work for us, we can't be picky, because our selection standards are so high. It's difficult for us to find someone with a graduate degree who's familiar with advanced statistics. That's why we pay well.

If it is as hard to find suitable ground work help as you say, then NWA should open their wallets. But it seems to me that they're not too concerned with the thought of having to replace most or all of their ground personnel

 

[Tim]

I agree with you completely - I see it in the applicants my company gets too. The problem with my company is that when we find someone who qualifies to work for us, we can't be picky, because our selection standards are so high. It's difficult for us to find someone with a graduate degree who's familiar with advanced statistics. That's why we pay well.

If it is as hard to find suitable ground work help as you say, then NWA should open their wallets. But it seems to me that they're not too concerned with the thought of having to replace most or all of their ground personnel

Its not what the airline is paying. Its that kids today think they are worth more salary wise. When new hire comes in there is a 95% chance they have never been around airplanes before. They have that deer in the headlights look. There is more to that job than you will ever see sitting in your first class or coach seat. Its harder now to get hired at an airline with all the checks than ever before. You have to pass those 3 I mentioned earlier and then still pass the ramp classes that teach you about working loading system of a wide body, the loaders, belt loaders, bag tugs, jet tugs, and the all the paper work. Plus now making sure all 300 bags match to all the people on the aircraft. Oh yeah and all the security issues that go with it also.
How many times a week do you get up at 3 am to go to work so that the first flight goes on time or you stay until 5 am so that the last flight can get to its destination due to weather delays. I am sure you have worked 12+ hour days but have you done it in the rain and cold

 

[Murdoughnut]

You come across in your previous post as saying that anyone can do that job and its a cake walk and that those folks are uneducated. That is what I am defending. I spent over 15 yrs doing that job. I have the aches and pains and surgeries from it but I wouldnt trade the knowledge I gain about balancing passenger aircraft for anything in the world. Yes in a grand stream of things its like balancing a 172 because you cant be overweight and the CG has to be correct but there is tons more to it.

I came off incorrectly then. I have no reservations about admitting that most of these folks probably work twice as hard as I do in a given week - and I think I work pretty hard.

Let me use my father as an example. He's a truck driver - and has always worked harder than any person I've ever known. But he also makes more than most people I know. Now just about anyone could become a truck driver - but few want to. That's why he makes what he does. While the eligilble supply of truck drivers is quite high, the willing supply is quite low - thus demand is high. If the willing supply of ground crew were lower, than I could see higher wages, but this just doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Your analogy is exaggerated. It would be more analogous to saying the ground crew workers parked their tugs behind the planes and refused to move. They did'nt "turn the electric off", they simply stopped providing their service, human work, for 20 minutes. That is their god given right.
Should there be armed guards standing in watchtowers, people with whips, forcing them to work?

There's a God given right to stop working for 20 minutes? I'm not a great Catholic but I don't remember hearing about that.

I gotta agree with everything Kellwolf said. It was 20 minutes. I mean really....big deal. Who hasn't been delayed 20 minutes?

Well........... They stopped everything for 20 minutes, which creates a 20 minute backlog, then they have to drive back to the other side of the airport, etc. etc. I think in TFA it says the delays were an hour-ish, which isn't a big deal, until it starts snowballing. It's fairly easy to snowball with the tight schedules airlines try to use.

If I was a passenger, I would not be mad at the ground crews...I would be mad at the airline for hosing the ground crews so much. I certainly would never try to say that my livelihood is connected to a 20 minute delay.

Try saying that again with, "If I were a passenger with no idea how the industry works and I saw a bunch of people stop working without any notice, causing me, who is already stressed out about travel due to security and all the other stress of the airport, to be an hour later, meaning Grandma has to wait an hour for me, which means she's going to be angry, causing her to write me out of the will."

I'm not saying that the rampers aren't being screwed, but if you do this stuff on a big weekend, you're going to annoy passengers, who 1) pay the bills and 2) are the ones who will garner sympathy (which goes back to #1).

 

[Murdoughnut]

Its not what the airline is paying. Its that kids today think they are worth more salary wise. When new hire comes in there is a 95% chance they have never been around airplanes before. They have that deer in the headlights look. There is more to that job than you will ever see sitting in your first class or coach seat. Its harder now to get hired at an airline with all the checks than ever before. You have to pass those 3 I mentioned earlier and then still pass the ramp classes that teach you about working loading system of a wide body, the loaders, belt loaders, bag tugs, jet tugs, and the all the paper work. Plus now making sure all 300 bags match to all the people on the aircraft. Oh yeah and all the security issues that go with it also.
How many times a week do you get up at 3 am to go to work so that the first flight goes on time or you stay until 5 am so that the last flight can get to its destination due to weather delays. I am sure you have worked 12+ hour days but have you done it in the rain and cold

Like I said above, I have no problem admitting that you probably work harder than I do in a given week. In a perfect world, pay would be determine by how hard you work, but unfortunately, that's not the case.