NTSB - Colgan 3407 Follow-Up

Re: Update on 3407

Unfortunately maybe its that mindset of "powering out the stall" that the Capt had that doomed the flight. My focus when in a stall recovery is the airspeed tape. I don't necessarily push down, but Im not pulling up til that airspeed is coming up.

I haven't read the transcrips, but if the FO pulled out all of the flaps maybe the plane acted a little differently than what he expected it to or trained for.

Another thing is that as 121/135 pilots, we really only practice stall recovery 2 times out of the year. Even then most of us are studied up and well aware that we will be doing stalls that day.

Is there no stall warning system before the buffet in the Q such as a horn or annunciator?

My companies SOP requires that we fly our approaches as much as 60kts faster in some case over Vref in icing conditions.
 
Re: Update on 3407

Is there no stall warning system before the buffet in the Q such as a horn or annunciator?

If you watch the NTSB animation, it shows that the stick shaker activated, after losing 20 knots in a few seconds, then the pusher activated.
 
Re: Update on 3407

In the metro there are quite a few things that happen before you get anywhere near the stick pusher. The wings buffet, you get the stall warning horn, and etc....

You've really gotten yourself in bad shape if you ever got the stick pusher.
 
Re: Update on 3407

I would hope that there is something to blame so that we can work at preventing it in the future. A witch hunt, maybe by the sensational media, but the NTSB investigation is nothing short of professional and thorough IMO. There's nothing wrong with discussing the fact of the investigation.

Should have specified the media :D But when u look at the reporting done by MSNBC its nothing short of sensationalism.
 
Re: Update on 3407

Sorry, I dont blame the training on this just the company for letting these pilots slip through the cracks. I dont buy the tired BS either.
?? ...there it is again - a seemingly contradictory statement: "don't blame the training", ..and "lettin' the pilots slip thru the cracks"...what cracks? ..not being able to perform?..doesn't that go back to training? ...or lack of training in this most basic of knee-jerk responses in pilot training - stall recovery.
 
Re: Update on 3407

As far as stall recovery in a 172 vs. CRJ. I believe an airplane is an airplane. The principles are the same. I know on a departure stall, I lower the nose for sure. On an approach to landing stall, all I know is pitching up at full power while airspeed keeps decreasing is not the proper thing to do.


ASA's stall profiles must be different than ours. Departure stall is max thrust, spoilers in, hold altitude respecting the shaker, positive rate gear up, V2+20, flaps up. Approach stall.....same thing more or less. Positive rate, flaps 20 gear up, V2+20, flaps up.

Obviously, if your airspeed is still bleeding off, you've got to do something to get it back. In the sim, at least, I've never NOT had enough excess thrust to power out of a stall. I don't intend to try it in the real plane, though.
 
Re: Update on 3407

I will admit that I have not read all 6 pages of this thread so I am not sure if this is addressed yet...but I did want to comment that it's not a bad idea for everyone to look at some of the supplemental information that is on the NTSB website. I have been looking at a lot of information and the interviews are very eye-opening. In paticular is one of the interviews with a Colgan check-airman. The questions are at times very pointed and "accusing" in terms of the interviewer's approach. It would probably behoove EVERYONE who is subject to a FAA/NTSB investigation to read through some of this stuff and see what it could be like when you are dragged through the mud.

Just a passing thought.
 
Re: Update on 3407

This was a complete loss of situational awareness, combined with a lack of a sterile cockpit. Pilot error.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Gotta love this quote....

"It's not an ideal way to work, but neither is working overnight in the post office," Daniel Morgan, Colgan's vice president for flight safety said.
So, when was the last time someone being tired in the post office resulted in the death of 50 people??? WTFO???
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Colgan Air Pilots Faced Long Commutes, Low Pay, Second Jobs
By Sholnn Freeman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:02 PM

Manassas-based Colgan Air today struggled to defend itself as details emerged about the low pay of its pilots, their long commutes and the need of some to hold second jobs to make ends meet.

Colgan faced a number of questions from the National Transportation Safety Board about its pilots in the second day of public hearings that cover the crash of Continental Connections Flight 3047 that killed 50 people near Buffalo on Feb. 12 this year. The NTSB is in its second day of public hearings into the crash, which was the deadliest U.S. transportation accident in seven years.

Under questioning from the board, Mary Finnigan, Colgan's vice president for administration, reported that Rebecca Shaw, co-pilot of the crash plane, drew an annual salary of $16,200 a year. The board also said that Shaw once held a second job in coffee shop while working as a pilot for the airline in Norfolk, Va.

Asked by a board if the Colgan expected Shaw to reside in the New York area, near her base in Newark, Finnegan responded: "Pilots are told what the pay scales are. Our pay scales are within the industry standard."

Later on, asked if Colgan made cost-of-living adjustments to assist employees who reside in expensive areas such as New York, Harry Mitchel, Colgan's vice president of flight operations, said no program existed for pilots. But, he added that Colgan had such a policy for managers.

The testimony offers a rare, behind-the-scenes look into regional airline world that has grown significantly over the years as major airlines contract out air service to regional airlines that serve small cities. Colgan was operating the Buffalo flight as regional airline partner of Continental Airlines. Regional carriers often fly jets that seat 78 passengers or less and turboprops, like the Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 involved in the crash.

According to the Regional Airline Association, 74 percent of the nation's 640 airports with scheduled airline service are only served by regional airlines. There are 70 regional airlines in the United States. Pilot jobs at the airlines are often considered entry-level jobs in the industry. Mitchel acknowledged that Colgan jobs were a "stepping stone" to higher-paying jobs at bigger airlines.

Pilots who work for major carriers flying large jet planes typically earn about $125,000 per year, on average.

Colgan has about 430 pilots and experiences an annual attrition rate as high as 30 percent, according to the safety board. Captains at Colgan Air typically earn between $50,000 and $53,000 per year.

The safety board also delved into the long commute for regional airline pilots. According to the NTSB, 93 of the Colgan's 137 Newark-based pilots identified themselves as commuters, including 49 of them who commute greater than 400 miles and 29 who live more than 1,000 miles away.

Both pilots were based at Colgan's Newark, N.J., office but lived in other cities and commuted to work by catching planes. Oftentimes, pilots commute to work by using privileges afforded to them by informal agreements among airlines that allow non-working pilots to sit in the jumpseat, or an open seat, when available and at little to no cost.

Shaw had an especially long, cross-country commute. On the day before the accident, Shaw left Seattle on an overnight FedEx flight to the East Coast. She arrived in Newark at 6:30 a.m. after a changeover in Memphis.

The board has said Shaw sent numerous text messages throughout the day, an indication that she wasn't getting adequate rest. Although Renslow arrived in Newark three days before the flight from Tampa, Fla., he was observed sleeping in the airline's crew lounge, a practice forbidden by the airline, according to the NTSB. The board has said it has found no evidence that either had accommodations in Newark.

Kitty Higgins, an NTSB board member, called the long-distance commuting and crew-room sleeping an other fatigue-related factors "a recipe for an accident and that's what we have here."

She continued, "Where does that all come together for somebody to say, 'Wait a minute. What is going on here?"

Colgan officials said the airline has made a number of policy improvements, including strengthening a policy that limits the pairing of inexperienced pilots in the cockpit. Colgan is currently in discussion with its pilots' union on flight and duty time rules and commuting policies.

The scheduling practices at Colgan are already under federal scrutiny. The Federal Aviation Administration has sent 16 letters of investigation probing whether Colgan was over-scheduling pilots between November 2008 and March 2009.

An FAA spokeswoman said the investigation was part of a routine review of the airline compliance with scheduling rules, which seek to ensure that pilots are getting sufficient rest. The spokeswoman said the current investigation was not triggered by the Buffalo crash.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

To be honest, choosing to take a job that has you living on the west coast and working on the east coast is your own choice to make, and not a smart one.
 
Colgan Air is running a smear campaign.

Blame the pilots, and the highly questionable methods of the rest of their operation somehow escapes notice.

Excuse me?

I don't think so. They're not getting away with that.

Not on my watch.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

To be honest, choosing to take a job that has you living on the west coast and working on the east coast is your own choice to make, and not a smart one.

Because as the NTSB pointed out, $16,000 a year is enough to live on in Newark, right?

She was living with her parents because she couldn't afford a place of her own.
 
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