NTSB - Colgan 3407 Follow-Up

Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Colgan is currently in discussion with its pilots' union on flight and duty time rules and commuting policies.


Yeah, and I'm sure THAT'S coming along at a good pace.....

Same guys have been "discussing" the same things with Pinnacle for five years.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

It'll probably result in something like this:
'You're not allowed to commute anymore!'
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

It'll probably result in something like this:
'You're not allowed to commute anymore!'

Heh. Think they've got staffing issues now? If Pinnacle did that, they'd never be able to staff DTW. At least, not without some kind of expensive re-location package or pay bump.
 
NBC News just did a feature story on the conditions the crew faced as Colgan pilots. I know they're the "liberal media" and all that, but I think they did a pretty good job of painting an accurate picture.
 
Damn, there are people flipping burgers making more than the FO. "Stepping stone" or not, that's pathetic.
 
Damn, there are people flipping burgers making more than the FO. "Stepping stone" or not, that's pathetic.

And "stepping stone" isn't even accurate anymore. Maybe for a brief moment in the past couple of years you could call the regionals a stepping stone. If the majors aren't hiring, it's a stepping stone to no where.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Because as the NTSB pointed out, $16,000 a year is enough to live on in Newark, right?

She was living with her parents because she couldn't afford a place of her own.

Nobody put a gun to her head and made her take that job. Why not hold out for something at least on the same side of the country?
 
Colgan Air is running a smear campaign.

Blame the pilots, and the highly questionable methods of the rest of their operation somehow escapes notice.

Excuse me?

I don't think so. They're not getting away with that.

Not on my watch.

How can you not blame the pilots?!? Did you see the NTSB animation?
 
Re: Update on 3407

So, he wasn't even in a high workload situation when he forgot about the Power Levers; what a tool. Maybe if he had not paid for his Gulfstream gig he would have been able to afford a crashpad to get some sleep and would not have made his little oversight. I'll bet he was one of the Colgan boys, who could not work out why ALPA might be a good idea in there.
this is inappropriate . . . to call the guy a tool for making an error, no matter how he got to the left seat is lowbrow.

I do not agree with PFT, and did not participate in that, but neither that or his union affiliation has anything to do with this discussion.

On to my point:

I have just about the exact same experience level he did. I know, because of prior life experience, that I am at the level where I could feel comfortable getting in way over my head. By knowing that I, believe I can stay more concientious. On the fire department we figured that the 3 year firefighter was in the most jeapordy because they were senior enough to feel confident and junior enought to miss hte signs of a possible trap. I am in that position right now and so was the captain of the ill fated Colgan flight.

As far as judging where a person works, we all want to progress in our career. I took a job in Turks and Caicos to get additional multiengine experience. That poor FO was just working hard at realizing her dreams.

We are not supposed to sleep in our crew lounge either, but there is no way that the FO's or FA's can afford to commute to an early show or get off late and maintain a home away from base. Often they live at home because the salary for those positions is paltry. Until every person who feels that thay are not getting paid appropriately QUITS their job, then we will continue to see for profit corporations taking advantage of the cheap labor costs.

I feel bad for these people. As captain, I have become very firm with sterile cockpit. Talk only about immediate issues relating to the operation, and the related conversation can wait until we are over 10K or at the gate.

We can talk about the possibilities and errors we percieve from this doomed crew, but to call names or make degrading comments is not an appropriate way to act . . . remember, "There but for the Grace of God go I."
 
IMO, there seems to be a whole lot of speculation going on....being the investigation is not complete yet. In the Navy, there is no way a mishap investigation would or "should" be leaked out prior to be completed. I know this is in the public domain (media coverage) with all folks killed onboard but not knowing for sure what happened yet is speculation. Training, pilot error, crew rest..all maybe played a part but nobody knows yet. Maybe never for sure.
 
Articles on low pay and 2nd jobs are relevant in this crash? While I think the pay/work rules/etc at regional airlines are deplorable, nobody forces a pilot to take such a job. You know what you are getting into. If you can't afford a place to live at your base on what you make, maybe its time to find another line of work?

What is really scary is the surplus of pilots lining up for such jobs that pay 16K a year, whether it be a stepping stone or not - never mind the Gulfstreams and other such outfits in this country where folks actually PAY for such an honor.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

This is not meant as flame bait - just trying to discuss and get opinions.<O:p></O:p>
 
IMO, there seems to be a whole lot of speculation going on....being the investigation is not complete yet. In the Navy, there is no way a mishap investigation would or "should" be leaked out prior to be completed. I know this is in the public domain (media coverage) with all folks killed onboard but not knowing for sure what happened yet is speculation. Training, pilot error, crew rest..all maybe played a part but nobody knows yet. Maybe never for sure.


I doubt a navy crew would have forgotten stall recovery technique, or that anyone in the navy is getting $16,000/year. Not that pilot error doesn't happen in the armed forces (in fact, fatigue is probably a bigger issue with you folks - see the crash of the 737 in the balkans) but fail a couple of checkrides in the military, and you're not going to be commanding an airplane with 50+ people on board. Just my $.02. Yeah I feel for them, but they screwed up, and paid the price for it.
 
Re: Update on 3407

this is inappropriate . . . to call the guy a tool for making an error, no matter how he got to the left seat is lowbrow.

I do not agree with PFT, and did not participate in that, but neither that or his union affiliation has anything to do with this discussion.

On to my point:

I have just about the exact same experience level he did. I know, because of prior life experience, that I am at the level where I could feel comfortable getting in way over my head. By knowing that I, believe I can stay more concientious. On the fire department we figured that the 3 year firefighter was in the most jeapordy because they were senior enough to feel confident and junior enought to miss hte signs of a possible trap. I am in that position right now and so was the captain of the ill fated Colgan flight.

As far as judging where a person works, we all want to progress in our career. I took a job in Turks and Caicos to get additional multiengine experience. That poor FO was just working hard at realizing her dreams.

We are not supposed to sleep in our crew lounge either, but there is no way that the FO's or FA's can afford to commute to an early show or get off late and maintain a home away from base. Often they live at home because the salary for those positions is paltry. Until every person who feels that thay are not getting paid appropriately QUITS their job, then we will continue to see for profit corporations taking advantage of the cheap labor costs.

I feel bad for these people. As captain, I have become very firm with sterile cockpit. Talk only about immediate issues relating to the operation, and the related conversation can wait until we are over 10K or at the gate.

We can talk about the possibilities and errors we percieve from this doomed crew, but to call names or make degrading comments is not an appropriate way to act . . . remember, "There but for the Grace of God go I."

Terrific post!
 
Articles on low pay and 2nd jobs are relevant in this crash? While I think the pay/work rules/etc at regional airlines are deplorable, nobody forces a pilot to take such a job. You know what you are getting into. If you can't afford a place to live at your base on what you make, maybe its time to find another line of work?ffice:office" /><o>:p></o>:p>
<o>:p></o>:p>
What is really scary is the surplus of pilots lining up for such jobs that pay 16K a year, whether it be a stepping stone or not - never mind the Gulfstreams and other such outfits in this country where folks actually PAY for such an honor.<o>:p></o>:p>
<o>:p></o>:p>
This is not meant as flame bait - just trying to discuss and get opinions.<o>:p></o>:p>

I tend to think the same way. You make more money flying a 206 out in the sticks than that, and you can get into it (if you're persistent enough) with little or no more time. Banner towing pays better, and is better stick and rudder experience.

The biggest problem is that our generation wants instant gratification, we want to be jet captains...NOW... and that's not how it's worked, and the airline managers know this. They know that they can promise next to nothing, and offer very little and that the chance for quickly jumping into the left seat (even if its imaginary) will lure in plenty. I used to think the same way. Now that I know better, I'm trying to diversify my experience, and meet new people, see new places, so that when I get the stick shaker on approach, I meet more than the minimum standard, and survive the encounter.

Flying isn't, and shouldn't be a linear and logical progression, it should give you experience in more than just seminoles then turbo-props. The fedex captain that I knew started out as a WSO in the F4, then got his civvie ratings after Viet Nam, then went to fly the ditch in 402s, then flew freight, then flew four or five odd flying jobs before he went in as an FE at FedEx. The point is, a broad base of experience in everything from airline to airforce, banner tow to bush work, and gliders to GoJet will make you a better and more capable pilot, and the quickest route to the top isn't necessarily the best.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Because as the NTSB pointed out, $16,000 a year is enough to live on in Newark, right?

She was living with her parents because she couldn't afford a place of her own.

There are lots of apartments and roommates between the east coast and west coast:)
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

Heh. Think they've got staffing issues now? If Pinnacle did that, they'd never be able to staff DTW. At least, not without some kind of expensive re-location package or pay bump.

"Your industry sucks and makes no sense!" My wife's words to me after talking to her about this.

"Just hire them for a base. You apply for a job, at a base, and live there. They must spend a fortune on hotels!"

Then I reminded her of seniority and bidding lines, QOL, etc. "Hire into a base. Live in that base. There is your quality of life. I don't see the problem."

Then I told her that Colgan has outstation basing, too. I think she repeated her first statement, but she was walking out of the room at the time.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

"Your industry sucks and makes no sense!" My wife's words to me after talking to her about this.

"Just hire them for a base. You apply for a job, at a base, and live there. They must spend a fortune on hotels!"

Then I reminded her of seniority and bidding lines, QOL, etc. "Hire into a base. Live in that base. There is your quality of life. I don't see the problem."

Then I told her that Colgan has outstation basing, too. I think she repeated her first statement, but she was walking out of the room at the time.


Did you tell her that Colgan opens and closes bases on a whim? You could be hired into a base and either lose your job or get moved to another base in 3-6 months. Kinda kills that whole "hire into a base" if they can't be flexible.
 
I know this is going to sound like flamebait but honestly it isn't. A lot of regional pilots bitch about the regional pay, and a couple threads down sing praises about their unions.

Honest Questions: Where are the unions at while the pay keeps slipping lower and lower? If the unions are "all powerful" and "the best thing since sliced bread" then can't they do anything to get their pilots more than 16K/year? Whatever happened to strikes?

:confused:
 
I know this is going to sound like flamebait but honestly it isn't. A lot of regional pilots bitch about the regional pay, and a couple threads down sing praises about their unions.

Honest Questions: Where are the unions at while the pay keeps slipping lower and lower? If the unions are "all powerful" and "the best thing since sliced bread" then can't they do anything to get their pilots more than 16K/year? Whatever happened to strikes?

:confused:

Read up on the Railway Labor Act. That's what happened to strikes.....
 
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