NTSB - Colgan 3407 Follow-Up

[nosehair]

[modhat]with the NTSB hearings and the ongoing release of 'New' information we are closing the older threads and starting a 'New' one with a redirect to here. [/modhat]

Seems like the crew just panicked and forgot basic airmanship and all their actions were reactionary.

I don't think training is the issue.

hmmm....how is it that I can read these same contradictory statements in the same post?...?

 

[Trip7]

Re: Update on 3407

hmmm....how is it that I can read these same contradictory statements in the same post?...?

All im saying is that they didn't revert to their training and just did whatever came to their mind first. Which happens when you're distracted and tired. Common human error.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Re: Update on 3407

All I can say is, the news is turning this into a witch hunt...People need someone to blame, and the news is more than willing to do it.

Sorry, but when the pilots screw up, that is what should happen. The fact is that they didn't do their job. Were there contributing factors? Of course. That doesn't change the fact that it is their job to get the passengers from Point A to Point B. I feel sorry for them and their families, but like most aviation accidents, this was probably pilot error.

 

[Goonie]

Re: Update on 3407

All im saying is that they didn't revert to their training and just did whatever came to their mind first. Which happens when you're distracted and tired. Common human error.

Common human error?!?!

Distracted with what Marcus? The airplane stalling?

Sorry, I dont blame the training on this just the company for letting these pilots slip through the cracks. I dont buy the tired BS either.

Maybe if he didnt go to Gulfstream and instructed for a while he would have leared stall recovery 101.

Just sayin...

Like Boris said "Stupid kills everytime"

 

[ajf005]

Re: Update on 3407

Good stuff from the NTSB to Colgan about low pay. This lady asked how much FO's make and what 16-20,000 can afford you in the Newark area. The guys response is something along the lines of "We give Colgan pilots an excellent opportunity to advance their career to the majors, we realize its a stepping stone to get to somewhere else. Pilots are grateful to fly for Colgan...(followed by more banter)"

 

[Roger, Roger]

Re: Update on 3407

The video looked just like a power-on stall gone horribly wrong, with no attempt to reduce AOA and excessive use of aileron.

Just sayin'.

 

[dcramer16]

Re: Update on 3407

Maybe if he didnt go to Gulfstream and instructed for a while he would have leared stall recovery 101.

I'm not a fan of PFT but you can't say "If only he was an instructor, all these people would be alive." Instructing doesn't make you less prone to accidents, and it doesn't make your poop smell better either. That's just my opinion.

 

[zmiller4]

Re: Update on 3407

I'm not a fan of PFT but you can't say "If only he was an instructor, all these people would be alive." Instructing doesn't make you less prone to accidents, and it doesn't make your poop smell better either. That's just my opinion.

You don't think that stall recovery might seem a little more familiar if you've spent 500 hrs teaching it than if you had only done them for your private and commercial ratings and a couple times a year in a sim?

 

[cool92092]

Re: Update on 3407

Here's something that I still confuses me. Anytime I notice something abnormal about a flight I take some time to discuss it with whomever I'm flying with (even myself). If the CA noted that there was a large amount of ice or more than he's seen in a long time, wouldn't it have triggered a discussion about cycling boots, Vref, airspeeds, anything? or is this just a non event to those with FIKI certification?

It seems like it was "Oh look there's ice, anyways as I was saying..."

Didn't change the end result but maybe it would've given more attention to the approach...

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Update on 3407

Here's something that I still confuses me. Anytime I notice something abnormal about a flight I take some time to discuss it with whomever I'm flying with (even myself). If the CA noted that there was a large amount of ice or more than he's seen in a long time, wouldn't it have triggered a discussion about cycling boots, Vref, airspeeds, anything? or is this just a non event to those with FIKI certification?

Well, all the anti and deice was already on. Did they brief the incorrect speeds during the approach briefing?

It seems like it was "Oh look there's ice, anyways as I was saying..."

Didn't change the end result but maybe it would've given more attention to the approach...

I've had a few conversations like this, like 'Oooh, look at that... its like a golfball on the ice detection post... or oooh, that boot just blew a lot, man I'm kind of hungry... you wanna hit the sara lee? Mmmm, chilidogs.'

I mean, it kind of gets routine after a while.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Update on 3407

Like Boris said "Stupid kills everytime"

Low airspeed on an ILS kills too. The main problem with airframe icing is the increase in stall speed. You would think that they would have been watching airspeed closely on the approach for exactly that reason. I didn't read airpseed mentioned once in the transcript.

Also, is pulling up flaps in a stall recovery normal for a Dash 8 ?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Update on 3407

Yes, at least in the 200 it is standard recovery procedure to go one flap setting back. If youre at flaps 15, its set max power flaps 5. (Or set max power flaps 15 on a 35' stall, etc)

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Update on 3407

Like Boris said "Stupid kills everytime"

That was bajthejino, although we're easily confused and I agree with him wholeheartedly. There is a way to tell us apart, though...I'm the good looking one.

As to the discussion, I think I'll be sitting the rest of it out after making the observation that while there's always a "chain", this particular "chain" seems to be made up of links that are all pretty common (with the possible exception of the Captain's response to the shaker), and that should be a little bit worrying.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Update on 3407

I do have to say that the mistakes I noticed on the FDR video (mainly the lack of thrust) look AWFULLY similar to some boneheaded mistakes I've made when I'm tired. Lucky for me, I was able to recognize how tired I was and kick my awareness (and that of my FO) up a notch. I also don't fly past that point of realization. If I realize I'm that tired, it's my last leg. Period. Something about an FO saying "Uh...do you mean to still have the flight spoilers out?" when you're about to turn base has you thinking "I'm calling scheduling as soon as we're on the ground."

As for CFIing vs PFTing, I'm no fan of PFT either. That being said, a low altitude stall recovery in a CRJ is not the same as one in a Cessna. You've got the excess thrust to hold the nose up and power out of the stall in a CRJ. In a Cessna, you may or may not, so you lower the nose. Do that in the CRJ, and you'll lose about a thousand feet easily. Can't say anything about the Q400 since I've never flown it, however.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Re: Update on 3407

That being said, a low altitude stall recovery in a CRJ is not the same as one in a Cessna. You've got the excess thrust to hold the nose up and power out of the stall in a CRJ. In a Cessna, you may or may not, so you lower the nose. Do that in the CRJ, and you'll lose about a thousand feet easily. Can't say anything about the Q400 since I've never flown it, however.

It seems like adding power when you are covered in ice and lose 20 knots of airspeed when you dirty it up is common sense. Even so, once the stall begins, it would be prudent to at least level the nose and power out of the stall rather than fighting the stick pusher and pitching up 20*. It seems the recovery is the same: Lower the angle of attack, add power.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Re: Update on 3407

As I watched the video, I kept wanting to scream, "Lower the nose daggummit LOWER THE NOSE!".

 

[Trip7]

Re: Update on 3407

I do have to say that the mistakes I noticed on the FDR video (mainly the lack of thrust) look AWFULLY similar to some boneheaded mistakes I've made when I'm tired. Lucky for me, I was able to recognize how tired I was and kick my awareness (and that of my FO) up a notch. I also don't fly past that point of realization. If I realize I'm that tired, it's my last leg. Period. Something about an FO saying "Uh...do you mean to still have the flight spoilers out?" when you're about to turn base has you thinking "I'm calling scheduling as soon as we're on the ground."

As for CFIing vs PFTing, I'm no fan of PFT either. That being said, a low altitude stall recovery in a CRJ is not the same as one in a Cessna. You've got the excess thrust to hold the nose up and power out of the stall in a CRJ. In a Cessna, you may or may not, so you lower the nose. Do that in the CRJ, and you'll lose about a thousand feet easily. Can't say anything about the Q400 since I've never flown it, however.

Agree on the fatigue issue. I've driven a perfectly good car off the highway due to fatigue. Humans do incredibly stupid stuff when we're tired.

As far as stall recovery in a 172 vs. CRJ. I believe an airplane is an airplane. The principles are the same. I know on a departure stall, I lower the nose for sure. On an approach to landing stall, all I know is pitching up at full power while airspeed keeps decreasing is not the proper thing to do.

 

[KLB]

Re: Update on 3407

Well you don't quite lower the nose in large aircraft. Most of them can just power out of the stall. Maybe the Q400 guys can comment on their stall recovery procedure, but I know that the aircraft I fly requires you to maintain a pitch up attitude in addition to adding power or else you're going to lose a considerable amount of altittude. I actually have to fight my desire to want to drop the nose everytime I perform stall recovery procedures during training and checkrides.

Fatigue might also be a factor worth looking at. Everyone knows that response time slows considerably the more fatigued a person gets.

 

[Trip7]

Re: Update on 3407

Unfortunately maybe its that mindset of "powering out the stall" that the Capt had that doomed the flight. My focus when in a stall recovery is the airspeed tape. I don't necessarily push down, but Im not pulling up til that airspeed is coming up.

 

[Florida_Flyer]

Re: Update on 3407

This was not even what happened though. He was not high or fast and he called for flaps 5 at a normal time at a normal speed. The captain then called for gear down when they were NOT fast OR high and the only reason the props came forward was not to correct a problem but because it was in the FOs flow and is done after the gear down call.

So, he wasn't even in a high workload situation when he forgot about the Power Levers; what a tool. Maybe if he had not paid for his Gulfstream gig he would have been able to afford a crashpad to get some sleep and would not have made his little oversight. I'll bet he was one of the Colgan boys, who could not work out why ALPA might be a good idea in there.