NTSB - Colgan 3407 Follow-Up

Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

kellwolf said:
Did you tell her that Colgan opens and closes bases on a whim? You could be hired into a base and either lose your job or get moved to another base in 3-6 months. Kinda kills that whole "hire into a base" if they can't be flexible.
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Are you kidding? Trying to justify an industry where people pay a ton for training just to work crazy hours for little/no pay AND now explain this scenario -- come on. :D My wife is very logical. You have to admit that the risk v. reward ratio of an airline has really decreased in recent years.



BobDDuck said:
Another "fly the contract" sort of deal...
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Very, very nice. :rawk:
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

jtrain609 said:
I'm pretty sure it does, and your answer tells me you lack experience in what you're attempting to discuss.
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You are correct, I have no airline experience. I do have common sense though, and that tells me that if I live on one side of the country, and go to work on the other side, it's not going to be an ideal situation. Simple 1+1=2 stuff there.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

deadstick said:
Are you kidding? Trying to justify an industry where people pay a ton for training just to work crazy hours for little/no pay AND now explain this scenario -- come on. :D My wife is very logical. You have to admit that the risk v. reward ratio of an airline has really decreased in recent years.
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Thats the deal though. You reeeaaally have to do your research before going into this career. Even people who I consider mentors would have sent me on the wrong path if I had listened to them. I've heard it...from go to Gulfstream to drop the 135 freight company where you're building turbine time and making 50+grand a year and go get a job as a regional FO. It'll get you to the majors faster! I've come find out that most of these guys were former military guys who never had to fly for the regionals. They always spoke about how great there life was and how much money they make. But of course life is great for them. Not only are they flying for a mainline, they're also either retired military or in the reserves.

And then you have some of these flight training establishments telling you that they can get you into the industry in 90 days.

So you have all these people telling you how great the career is and then reality hits.

Luckily I did a decent amount of research and decided early on that the regional route wasn't going to work for me. There was no way that I would be able to pay back my student loans off of first year pay. I consider myself lucky so far. I've stumbled my through unscaved so far. I am still preparing for the inevitables though.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

deadstick said:
You have to admit that the risk v. reward ratio of an airline has really decreased in recent years.
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No doubt. If I were just now looking to get into this biz, I think I'd stick with loading people on Space Mountain.
 
Re: Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash

jknight8907 said:
You are correct, I have no airline experience. I do have common sense though, and that tells me that if I live on one side of the country, and go to work on the other side, it's not going to be an ideal situation. Simple 1+1=2 stuff there.
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There are some 400 mile commutes that make some 4000 mile commutes a cake walk.

Total distance a commute does not make.

My dad just flew with a FO that lives in London and probably has the best thing going in the company. Be the IRO on the flight into EWR, nonrev back that night. Gone 5 24 hour periods for the whole month.
 
calcapt said:
A very tragic and sad event that has impacted us all. The public will certainly place blame and the media will continue to sensationalize anything that will increase ratings or sell newspapers. As far as I am concerned this accident is in the history books - it cannot be undone. We as aviation professionals must rise above idle speculation and unfounded criticism. CA Renslow and FO Shaw didn't want to die that night any more that any one of us wants to die on our next flight. There were obvious problems and issues that caused this crash and those facts will be established in time. Our focus should now be on how to prevent another tragedy like this from happening again. We should all be participating in public education venues that disclose substandard working conditions, regulations that compromise safety and inadequate training that should take place but doesn't. Management would have everyone believe the industry is fine and they have the media exposure to spread that propaganda. It rests on our shoulders to make our industry better and safer. That's where we need to be focusing our efforts today, tomorrow, next week, next month and beyond.
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And this my valued calcapt is an example of integrity I am missing.
A few people would do well by framing, reading and applying some of the very basics of this text. Thanks!

jtrain:
I'm pretty sure it does, and your answer tells me you lack experience in what you're attempting to discuss.
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Statements like these make you look awefully small. I'm sure you can do better than that. ;)
 
calcapt said:
A very tragic and sad event that has impacted us all. The public will certainly place blame and the media will continue to sensationalize anything that will increase ratings or sell newspapers. As far as I am concerned this accident is in the history books - it cannot be undone. We as aviation professionals must rise above idle speculation and unfounded criticism. CA Renslow and FO Shaw didn't want to die that night any more that any one of us wants to die on our next flight. There were obvious problems and issues that caused this crash and those facts will be established in time. Our focus should now be on how to prevent another tragedy like this from happening again. We should all be participating in public education venues that disclose substandard working conditions, regulations that compromise safety and inadequate training that should take place but doesn't. Management would have everyone believe the industry is fine and they have the media exposure to spread that propaganda. It rests on our shoulders to make our industry better and safer. That's where we need to be focusing our efforts today, tomorrow, next week, next month and beyond.
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:yeahthat: Damn good post!

mojo6911 said:
I didn't realize less than a year at a regional made you an expert.
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Maybe not, but it makes him more of an expert than the guy with zero experience who's speaking ill of the dead.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Maybe not, but it makes him more of an expert than the guy with zero experience who's speaking ill of the dead.
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I suppose if the NTSB decides it was pilot error, you'll condemn them as well for speaking "ill of the dead"? If you never question the actions of someone who has passed in an accident, how will you ever learn anything from their mistakes?
 
jknight8907 said:
I suppose if the NTSB decides it was pilot error, you'll condemn them as well for speaking "ill of the dead"?
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I'm sure that this will be classified as pilot error, but an official investigation and ruling by the NTSB, a group of professional accident investigators, is a big difference than an arrogant little private pilot who doesn't know jack about flying transport category aircraft. Keep your uninformed thoughts to yourself until the NTSB completes their investigation.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm sure that this will be classified as pilot error, but an official investigation and ruling by the NTSB, a group of professional accident investigators, is a big difference than an arrogant little private pilot who doesn't know jack about flying transport category aircraft. Keep your uninformed thoughts to yourself until the NTSB completes their investigation.
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Who the hell do you think you are to run your mouth off and tell me what I can and can't think? If I want to express my opinion that commuting across the country the night before a trip is a bad idea, then that is my decision. Having experience flying transport aircraft has nothing to do with that. I have as much a right to thought process as you do. If anyone is arrogant here, it's you, as you are obviously unable to accept that there could be the slightest chance that that could have anything to do with the crash. I'm truly surprised that you can get into the cockpit with an ego as large as yours.

Your statement of "little private pilot" really shows your maturity, though. I'm glad you came into this world with 4000 hours and an ATP already under your belt so you never had to suffer as a "little private pilot" on your way to being a big-daddy 717 pilot. Good to see you've completely forgotten where you came from.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm sure that this will be classified as pilot error, but an official investigation and ruling by the NTSB, a group of professional accident investigators, is a big difference than an arrogant little private pilot who doesn't know jack about flying transport category aircraft. Keep your uninformed thoughts to yourself until the NTSB completes their investigation.
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BS!

Im not going to bash the pilots more than they have been, but keeping the yoke in your lap during a stall?? Don't act like transport category aircraft is some magical place where basic aerodynamics don't apply.
 
Must be almost time to shut this thread down as well...
JC politics and dick swinging competition at it's best - huh?

Is it true that the average force behind the keystrokes going into a aggravated message typed on a aviation forum grows expotentially by 402%? I wonders...
 
Just a quick question.

I fly a turboprop myself and I know airlines have profiles that are to be followed in these situations. After watching the NTSB video with the CVR transcript on it I noticed several things.

1. When they got the stick shaker how come the Captain did not call for max power or flaps 7 (Im not sure what the flap settings are in a Q400 or even if the profile calls for bringing the flaps to 7, the Saab calls for flaps 7 if the flaps are at 15)? Why is the FO putting the flaps to 0 from 15 without the CA asking for it? This IMO made the stall even worse.

2. Why was the gear put up prior to positive rate, not that they ever got positive rate after the initial stick shaker?

3. Why is neither pilot paying any attention to the airspeed dropping until the plane actually stalls? I dont know about others but on approach the airspeed indicator is one of the instruments im watching the most, along with the EHSI.

4. Why with the flaps going to 15, gear coming down, and condition levers max was there no change in power setting to compensate for all this drag on approach? This IMO is the main reason they stalled in the first place.

It seems to me that BOTH pilots made several mistakes that lead up to this, and after watching the NTSB video it seems they had a good chance to recover had they followed procedure.

Any current Q400 pilots care to answer these questions?
 
ryanmickG said:
BS!

Im not going to bash the pilots more than they have been, but keeping the yoke in your lap during a stall?? Don't act like transport category aircraft is some magical place where basic aerodynamics don't apply.
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What about during a tailplane stall? If you fly a turboprop, and you are in ice, and let's say you've lost SA, because of whatever reason (how many have lost SA here?) and then get the yoke yanked out from in front of you, what are you going to think, quick now 3 seconds!

Is it a wing or tail stall, wrong answer and you die.

This is the problem, if you do not have experience in these more advanced aircraft or have ever purposefully (and legally) flown into icing, you are forming opinions and making judgments based on incomplete understandings.

It would be as if you were going to make a decision about how a college girl might react to you when you are a freshman in high school, you might get it right if you're lucky or mature for your age, but more likely you are going to demonstrate your lack of experience in a big way.

If you are on the outside, and have not lived this lifestyle, it's not a good time to throw stones at those who have.

Let's be cool with one another and try to learn from this. Not only about how to avoid this in the future, but also how to raise ourselves above the fray and be classy, compassionate and non judgmental. For those who think that something like this can never happen to you, then you are closer than you think.
 
Bumblebee said:
What about during a tailplane stall? If you fly a turboprop, and you are in ice, and let's say you've lost SA, because of whatever reason (how many have lost SA here?) and then get the yoke yanked out from in front of you, what are you going to think, quick now 3 seconds!

Is it a wing or tail stall, wrong answer and you die.

This is the problem, if you do not have experience in these more advanced aircraft or have ever purposefully (and legally) flown into icing, you are forming opinions and making judgments based on incomplete understandings.

It would be as if you were going to make a decision about how a college girl might react to you when you are a freshman in high school, you might get it right if you're lucky or mature for your age, but more likely you are going to demonstrate your lack of experience in a big way.

If you are on the outside, and have not lived this lifestyle, it's not a good time to throw stones at those who have.

Let's be cool with one another and try to learn from this. Not only about how to avoid this in the future, but also how to raise ourselves above the fray and be classy, compassionate and non judgmental. For those who think that something like this can never happen to you, then you are closer than you think.
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What is more likely? Tailplane stall, or wing stall, I vote wingstall. Especially in icing conditions (== greater weight, less lift). Lower the nose call for max power, and pull the flaps up a bit.

'Sides, a tailplane stall is likely to drop the nose anyway, so if you get one (you're not going to get a stick shaker) the nose will fall on its own, and you'll know what to do. Read nasa stuff.

This is pilot error.
 
Just asking here...

But as it applies to tailplane stalls... aren't aircraft with a t-tail (like the Q400) less susceptible to tailplane stalls than say an aircraft with a "normal" tail (like the Saab)?
 
Bumblebee said:
What about during a tailplane stall? If you fly a turboprop, and you are in ice, and let's say you've lost SA, because of whatever reason (how many have lost SA here?) and then get the yoke yanked out from in front of you, what are you going to think, quick now 3 seconds!

Is it a wing or tail stall, wrong answer and you die.
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THANK YOU DALE!! Was wading through the rest of these posts to see if somebody made that point.

ppragman said:
What is more likely? Tailplane stall, or wing stall, I vote wingstall. Especially in icing conditions (== greater weight, less lift). Lower the nose call for max power, and pull the flaps up a bit.
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Um, no. Ice buildup happens quicker on the smaller surface: the tailplane. And remember, the tailplane isn't there to produce lift, it's there for control. In virtually all flight regimes, losing control is worse than losing lift.
 
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