Non-Union airlines..

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meritflyer said:
:yup:

I'll keep my position on non-union carriers and do my part in supporting all airline unions in an effort to preserve the profession. This is not the place to come onto and throw around support for non-union positions since most here are very pro. Just ask our friend Velo.

Last but not least, do your homework on union carriers before you make yourself look stupid.
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i do need to do my homework. i guess my confusion lies in the difference between an in house union and a national union and with all your alpa flare i just assumed you were referring to alpa only. i have met people that believe that anything other than alpa is pure crap! how much clout does an in house union actually have? and for the record, i voted for alpa.
 
junior said:
how much clout does an in house union actually have? and for the record, i voted for alpa.
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At a regional an in house union is like pissing on a million acre forest fire.

At a place like UPS or SWA an in house union works well. Even with that though SWA and UPS unions spend MILLIONS per year on ALPA pilot services.

Did you read flying the line?
 
pilot602 said:
Then there are guys who try to make a difference by supporting and voting but still get sucked down by close to 70% of their "peers."


Something I'd really like to see ALPA do is a journeyman/associate membership. The Fraternal Order of Police allows individuals to join the "national" organization and they provide support on an inidividaul basis to those officers whose departments are non union.

I think ALPA should do the same thing.

Wouldn't help much on contract negotiations or whatnot but it would/could provide help on an individual level (aka and association ala AOPA for professional pilots).

Plus it's more income for ALPA.
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I also agree.. that's a rockin' idea.
 
I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff yet, but as far as I can tell, the only difference between ALPA and an in house union like Southwest or American, is that ALPA can draw on a HUGE national warchest. Otherwise, the actions of the local MEC are entirely up to them, and those decisions are made by the MEC officers who are elected by the pilots of the airline. So if the MEC is doing things it shouldn't, it's because the pilots didn't elect good people.

This is what is so misguided about the whole US Airways trying to get rid of ALPA thing. If their officers get rid of ALPA and they form an in house union, all they are doing is cutting off their own access to that funding. The same guys who made the bad decisions leading to their binding arbitration are still running the local union.

My own take on the union vs. non-union thing is that anyone can make a mistake. It's easy to think "I'm a pro, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to be that guy". But it happens and it can happen to you. I did something dumb 3 weeks out of IOE and wound up in the Chief Pilots Office. It sure was nice walking in there knowing that the union was going to stand up for me. It wound up being no big deal, but at another place with no union and bad management releations? I might have been looking for another job right now, or on someones list of people to try and get rid of. So there is definitely a benefit. When everything is going your way and the airline is growing, it won't seem to matter. But when the chips are down it's good to have the union behind you.
 
KW said:
I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff yet, but as far as I can tell, the only difference between ALPA and an in house union like Southwest or American, is that ALPA can draw on a HUGE national warchest. Otherwise, the actions of the local MEC are entirely up to them, and those decisions are made by the MEC officers who are elected by the pilots of the airline. So if the MEC is doing things it shouldn't, it's because the pilots didn't elect good people.

This is what is so misguided about the whole US Airways trying to get rid of ALPA thing. If their officers get rid of ALPA and they form an in house union, all they are doing is cutting off their own access to that funding. The same guys who made the bad decisions leading to their binding arbitration are still running the local union.
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The USAir "get rid of ALPA" binge is a stall tactic.

It's just a way to stall the final merging of the senority lists so those at USAir "east" can upgrade and retire before they take a huge hit in senority and get "locked" into their current positions/equipment.

It's nothing more, nothing less.
 
PCL_128 said:
Don't you have a cabin to be cleaning somewhere?
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....

...guess you brought FI over here with you when you registered!

I'm very pro-union but lets stop kicking Colgan and SKYW they had a union drive, it failed. But they tried, members of this board (yourself included) assited them in that drive, lest we forget that.

Let's not let the actions for the majority haunt the few that actually stepped up.

What's next after non-union carriers suck? ALPA is the best, if you're not ALPA don't talk to me, you're scum???

That's not a real forgone conclusion that I'm observing here in this thread, lets work together, and not against.

C'mon guys, c'mon...

:mad:
 
PCL_128 said:
Me? I'm pretty sure that Velo was spreading "the gospel" about unions here long before I ever showed up.
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Don't get me wrong...I like you, I do, and I mean that in a totally non gay way! Your experience with unions has been a great addition to the site.

Lets just tone down all the rhetoric and insults, and attack the issue, and not the person.

Both you and Tram crack me up over on FI (seriously), but this isn't FI, so lets keep that stuff that is acceptable over there, over there.

And argue on facts, logic and not soley on emotion over here!

:)
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Lets just tone down all the rhetoric and insults, and attack the issue, and not the person.
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Sorry, but I'm always gonna say something about the JetBlew cabin-cleaners/pilots whenever it comes up. It just bugs me to no end. It's even worse than the leather jacket. :eek:

Both you and Tram crack me up over on FI (seriously)
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Come on, I've been wondering for a long time: who are you on FI? I've never been able to pick you out.
 
PCL is a Streamer and Merit was anti-union when he was selling drugs. How things change with the wind...

Fins, I gotta hand it to you for bothering with this place.

Personally, I think Jetblue is a good job for some and worth consideration as a step up the ladder, or maybe the top rung, if that works for you. Skywest is a good job for some and worth consideration as a step up the ladder, or maybe the top rung, if that works for you.

I just got asked to serve on a union committee, which I'll be happy to accept. I'm as pro-union as they come. But I gotta throw the BS flag when it comes to beating down a fellow pilot cause he chooses to work at a non-union airline. I've seen Southwest guys help with cleaning the cabin. What's up with that?

Some "UNION" airlines, like Gulfstream and Gojets, do a lot more damage to the career than Jetblue or Skywest.
 
DE727UPS said:
PCL is a Streamer and Merit was anti-union when he was selling drugs. How things change with the wind...

Fins, I gotta hand it to you for bothering with this place.

Personally, I think Jetblue is a good job for some and worth consideration as a step up the ladder, or maybe the top rung, if that works for you. Skywest is a good job for some and worth consideration as a step up the ladder, or maybe the top rung, if that works for you.

I just got asked to serve on a union committee, which I'll be happy to accept. I'm as pro-union as they come. But I gotta throw the BS flag when it comes to beating down a fellow pilot cause he chooses to work at a non-union airline. I've seen Southwest guys help with cleaning the cabin. What's up with that?

Some "UNION" airlines, like Gulfstream and Gojets, do a lot more damage to the career than Jetblue or Skywest.
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I'm sorry sir, you're using logic, I'm going to have to ask you to leave.:D

Now I'm all for unions, I think they're needed now more than ever, but a small few of the pro union guys on here are starting to sound like these guys.

[yt]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uORAyORWRAA&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uORAyORWRAA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/yt]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uORAyORWRAA (for when the embed doesn't work)

You gotta educate people, but saying "you're an idiot!" is not a very good way to teach if you actually want to get your message across.
 
Yeah, the logic that if it helps you as an individual to further your career, it doesn't matter how much damage you do to the piloting profession.

That would be the logic of me, Me, ME! Pretty much how jetBlue/Allegiant/Virgin/Skybus pilots think. Same logic scabs use.
 
DE727UPS lives in his own little buble over there in the cargo world and really doesn't understand a thing about union dynamics in the pax sector. In his own little bubble, serious non-union competitors don't exist, so he doesn't have to worry about them. In his little bubble, serious competitors don't exist where people are flying his size airplane for a third the salary. Yes, it's easy for him to scoff at our concerns when his company makes a billion dollars in profit every quarter and their only competitor is also a union company that has equivalent pay, work-rules, and retirement. If Don ever finds himself in a situation where he has several non-union competitors trying to destroy his sector of the profession, then maybe he'll understand. Until then, he's just living in a nice little fantasy world.
 
PCL_128 said:
DE727UPS lives in his own little buble over there in the cargo world and really doesn't understand a thing about union dynamics in the pax sector. In his own little bubble, serious non-union competitors don't exist, so he doesn't have to worry about them. In his little bubble, serious competitors don't exist where people are flying his size airplane for a third the salary. Yes, it's easy for him to scoff at our concerns when his company makes a billion dollars in profit every quarter and their only competitor is also a union company that has equivalent pay, work-rules, and retirement. If Don ever finds himself in a situation where he has several non-union competitors trying to destroy his sector of the profession, then maybe he'll understand. Until then, he's just living in a nice little fantasy world.
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Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defense rests.

Atta boy, PCL.
 
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